whats with fender amp pricing in this country? are we being ripped off

Keira-WitherKay · 2011-04-15T08:29:44+00:00

sure you all read my post looking for a Fender princeton reverb reissue amp .here in sa the retail is 20 K and after discount it seems 13K is about the be...

whats with fender amp pricing in this country? are we being ripped off

PeteM

The temperature is rising....
plenty of wild and generalised statements being bandied about and those who are the potential advertisers, and who can keep this site alive, are being attacked without being allowed to respond. Something's not right.

BTW I'm on nobody's side. I just like to hear all sides of an argument before making a judgement.

Tokai-SA

X-rated Bob wrote:
Tokai SA wrote:
X-rated Bob wrote:
Wizard wrote: Looks like it's time for a Fender person to chime in ...
Assuming there are any here on this forum they may not chime in - rules and all that.

You can't have a rule like that, Bob, where people can say whatever they want about a company/brand/distributor, and then say it's against 'the rules' for a rep of that company to chime in and provide the correct information.
I don't write 'em. We all know what the rule are and who to speak to about getting them changed.

There's also been a prior ruling on this matter in this very thread and I'm not about to undermine Alan. He's the headmaster, I'm a prefect.

I respect Alan's rules and abide by them...I know he's the headmaster, I've been called into his office and caned by him before. ?

ezietsman

I agree with the comment above that distributors, dealers etc should have a page where they are allowed to answer questions directed at them. Maybe a new forum heading named 'Questions for industry' where we, the users, can ask questions and then the industry players may answer only in threads pertaining to them. With a bit of spit and polish I think this could be a reasonable solution. The rules are a bit strict/limited at the moment

singemonkey

I thought originally the dealers were allowed to respond to direct questions. Things like, "Which stores stock Fenders?" or whatnot? Was that not the case or has it changed?

AlanRatcliffe

I have a better handle than most on the way the industry works and have in the past sat down with major players and discussed local prices and the perception of those prices.

I've already explained many of the reasons behind higher prices here in SA and explained the costs behind importing any product. There is no way around this if you want someone to invest millions to keep local stock and back it up. As a business, it's not a money spinner either - no-one is getting filthy rich from doing it.

I've explained why there is a price disparity with some brands, that the problem lies with the way the manufacturer themselves dictate distribution chains and suggested taking it up with the manufacturers (which is where the root cause lies).

As is the nature of Internet forums, some will always choose to ignore the important points and continue making blanket statements. That's why manufacturers and distributors tend to shy away from discussion on most forums - they know a small but vocal minority will always attack them regardless of how well they explain things and that getting drawn in to such discussion is ultimately counter-productive.

A board for manufacturers/distributors would be too difficult to moderate. The line between simply answering questions and what could be construed as advertising would be blurry, leaving the mods and I with too many tough decisions to make and undoubtedly need a whole new host of rules.

Tokai-SA

Alan Ratcliffe wrote: I have a better handle than most on the way the industry works and have in the past sat down with major players and discussed local prices and the perception of those prices.

I've already explained many of the reasons behind higher prices here in SA and explained the costs behind importing any product. There is no way around this if you want someone to invest millions to keep local stock and back it up. As a business, it's not a money spinner either - no-one is getting filthy rich from doing it.

I've explained why there is a price disparity with some brands, that the problem lies with the way the manufacturer themselves dictate distribution chains and suggested taking it up with the manufacturers (which is where the root cause lies).

As is the nature of Internet forums, some will always choose to ignore the important points and continue making blanket statements. That's why manufacturers and distributors tend to shy away from discussion on most forums - they know a small but vocal minority will always attack them regardless of how well they explain things and that getting drawn in to such discussion is ultimately counter-productive.

A board for manufacturers/distributors would be too difficult to moderate. The line between simply answering questions and what could be construed as advertising would be blurry, leaving the mods and I with too many tough decisions to make and undoubtedly need a whole new host of rules.

I agree, makes good sense.

AlanRatcliffe

Alan Ratcliffe wrote: I have a better handle than most on the way the industry works and have in the past sat down with major players and discussed local prices and the perception of those prices.

BTW - I should also note that I'm not in a position to influence anyone's pricing or policy. ?

Tokai SA wrote: I agree, makes good sense.

Thanks Lance. You know better than most how fine a line it can be already. You are a very good "line-dancer" yourself sometimes (while most don't even bother trying), and often it comes down to a small difference in perspective as to exactly where the line lies.

You also know that I am approachable if and when an interested party wants to discuss a thread on the forum. If necessary I am always willing to post an official response if it is given to me. Sometimes I go as far as alerting someone to a thread if I feel there is something they might like to comment on. Usually they don't.

StephenG

Alan Ratcliffe wrote:
Tokai SA wrote: I agree, makes good sense.
Thanks Lance. You know better than most how fine a line it can be already. You are a very good "line-dancer" yourself sometimes (while most don't even bother trying), and often it comes down to a small difference in perspective as to exactly where the line lies.

not to rock the boat here or anything, but Tokai guitars are not far off from the Fender pricing model themselves.

in a guitar shop in UK, they had 4 brand new Tokais for sale, each one at well below half price of what they go for here. Even my missus suggested we buy all 4 of them while we were there, and bring them back with us to resell.

so in saying this, one can look at it in 2 ways... either, as Alan and others have been saying, there is a far bigger effort and backroom support requirements that goes into being official agents that pushes prices up,

or, more cynically, Tokai looked and said, "if Fender can do that sort of pricing model, then so can we... double the price!!"

truth is, unless we are actually in the industry, being official agents for something, we will never known the true cope and business model.

Sean

joel wrote:
StephenG wrote:
Alan Ratcliffe wrote:
Tokai SA wrote: I agree, makes good sense.
Thanks Lance. You know better than most how fine a line it can be already. You are a very good "line-dancer" yourself sometimes (while most don't even bother trying), and often it comes down to a small difference in perspective as to exactly where the line lies.

not to rock the boat here or anything, but Tokai guitars are not far off from the Fender pricing model themselves.

in a guitar shop in UK, they had 4 brand new Tokais for sale, each one at well below half price of what they go for here. Even my missus suggested we buy all 4 of them while we were there, and bring them back with us to resell.

so in saying this, one can look at it in 2 ways... either, as Alan and others have been saying, there is a far bigger effort and backroom support requirements that goes into being official agents that pushes prices up,

or, more cynically, Tokai looked and said, "if Fender can do that sort of pricing model, then so can we... double the price!!"

truth is, unless we are actually in the industry, being official agents for something, we will never known the true cope and business model.
oh really , :-\......What models were they ? . As with Fender guitars , Tokai too have manufacturing facilities outside of their 'home country' ( Japan , in Tokais case ). The models you saw are more than likely those Tokais that are manufactured in China , and are thus the cheaper models of the Tokai range. There are no MIC Love Rock (Les Paul shape ) guitars being sold in SA music shops at the moment , only the MIJ versions which are indeed more expensive.......but , maybe you already knew that . 8)

IceCreamMan

a guy i know imports secodn hand V8 motors ...huge hulking behemoths these motors are whcih weigh oh lets say 50 times more than a fender amp. He then keeps them in a warehouse and moves them as required.

he is selling em for under 10 rand to the street dollar price (for similar spec'd motors) and making good profits in the process.

jsut saying of course ...

if the current importers are using an inefficient business model then the consumer is held to ransom ..cept consumers then find substitutes or alternative channels ... i wonder how much business is currently being lost bu forum members buying stuff directly and if this trend is growing and if it is , why is it growing?

vic

re Tokai prices in London's Wunjo guitars in Denmark street

http://www.wunjoguitars.com/index.php?page=1&sid=1&mid=57#

Also a few Gibsons

http://www.wunjoguitars.com/index.php?sid=1&mid=4#

Even some Fenders

http://www.wunjoguitars.com/index.php?sid=1&mid=1

StephenG

joel wrote:

oh really , :-\......What models were they ? . As with Fender guitars , Tokai too have manufacturing facilities outside of their 'home country' ( Japan , in Tokais case ). The models you saw are more than likely those Tokais that are manufactured in China , and are thus the cheaper models of the Tokai range. There are no MIC Love Rock (Les Paul shape ) guitars being sold in SA music shops at the moment , only the MIJ versions which are indeed more expensive.......but , maybe you already knew that . 8)

sorry Joel, but I dont think you can just make an assumption on the models that I saw and where they were made.

they were in the same price range as Fenders, so that is either Tokai ripping everyone a new one with their pricing on chinese made guitars, or Tokai following Fenders pricing model.

if Fenders are the only ones guilty in South Africa of padding their prices, how come the same discounts are given on Tokais when it comes to sale time?

this is not a Fender or Tokai bashing exercise, but rather an industry bashing one, as I see the same pricing patterns on Tokai's as I do on Fenders.

BUT, let me go on to say that perhaps its not specific to south africa... Vic posted the links to Wunjo's price lists. I happened to buy one of the items on that price list and paid a few bob less that what the advertised price is, plus got a hardcase to bring it home in.. so dealer price padding is world wide and not just a south african trick to rip us off.

Tokai-SA

StephenG wrote:
Alan Ratcliffe wrote:
Tokai SA wrote: I agree, makes good sense.
Thanks Lance. You know better than most how fine a line it can be already. You are a very good "line-dancer" yourself sometimes (while most don't even bother trying), and often it comes down to a small difference in perspective as to exactly where the line lies.

not to rock the boat here or anything, but Tokai guitars are not far off from the Fender pricing model themselves.

in a guitar shop in UK, they had 4 brand new Tokais for sale, each one at well below half price of what they go for here. Even my missus suggested we buy all 4 of them while we were there, and bring them back with us to resell.

so in saying this, one can look at it in 2 ways... either, as Alan and others have been saying, there is a far bigger effort and backroom support requirements that goes into being official agents that pushes prices up,

or, more cynically, Tokai looked and said, "if Fender can do that sort of pricing model, then so can we... double the price!!"

truth is, unless we are actually in the industry, being official agents for something, we will never known the true cope and business model.

I'm not allowed to ask you any questions or provide you any answers...I won't say a word here....I'll send you a PM. ?

Tom

How irritated would the few top end US American custom shop fender owners be if suddenly the price fell through the floor and it wasn't worth half it's previous value?

About a good business model, I've got a feeling most importers have tried a fair amount of ways to undercut eachother's rates and provide instruments for as cheap as possible. Most people are in the industry for the love of music, not big $$. We just don't have the customer base here to support most models but the one that is currently in place.

I spoke to someone that worked for fender SA and I had a new understanding afterwards for the high prices.

But again, haters will hate.

vic

StephenG wrote:
joel wrote: oh really , :-\......What models were they ? . As with Fender guitars , Tokai too have manufacturing facilities outside of their 'home country' ( Japan , in Tokais case ). The models you saw are more than likely those Tokais that are manufactured in China , and are thus the cheaper models of the Tokai range. There are no MIC Love Rock (Les Paul shape ) guitars being sold in SA music shops at the moment , only the MIJ versions which are indeed more expensive.......but , maybe you already knew that . 8)
sorry Joel, but I dont think you can just make an assumption on the models that I saw and where they were made.
they were in the same price range as Fenders, so that is either Tokai ripping everyone a new one with their pricing on chinese made guitars, or Tokai following Fenders pricing model.
if Fenders are the only ones guilty in South Africa of padding their prices, how come the same discounts are given on Tokais when it comes to sale time?
this is not a Fender or Tokai bashing exercise, but rather an industry bashing one, as I see the same pricing patterns on Tokai's as I do on Fenders.
BUT, let me go on to say that perhaps its not specific to south africa... Vic posted the links to Wunjo's price lists. I happened to buy one of the items on that price list and paid a few bob less that what the advertised price is, plus got a hardcase to bring it home in.. so dealer price padding is world wide and not just a south african trick to rip us off.

Correct...Wunjo's give excellent discount on those prices. eg I paid 680 GBP (after discount) in 2008 for a mint 1998 Gibson SG Standard (original case included).

Keira-WitherKay

Tom wrote: How irritated would the few top end US American custom shop fender owners be if suddenly the price fell through the floor and it wasn't worth half it's previous value?

I spoke to someone that worked for fender SA and I had a new understanding afterwards for the high prices.

But again, haters will hate.

hey i started this thread and i don't hate fender or the suppliers or dealers, in fact i love fender products and all it stands for and history ect ect ...... i just had some questions re pricing which seems extreme here in comparison to retail in USA

so i don't think it's a case of haters.just questions.........

Svengali

Here's my 2 cents worth.

I bought an American made Peavey Classic 50 for two thirds the price of the Mexican Hot Rod Deluxe, which can't only be accounted for in terms of stock speakers (Fender's probably cost a little more). Same price ratio is found in the States. My mind was made up for me. Imports and all that aside, are we really only paying (as IMHO we should) for what we get? I don't pay for no history or rep, it doesn't serve me at all.

IceCreamMan

link=topic=11943.msg133610#msg133610 wrote: How irritated would the few top end US American custom shop fender owners be if suddenly the price fell through the floor and it wasn't worth half it's previous value?

I spoke to someone that worked for fender SA and I had a new understanding afterwards for the high prices.

Tom , maybe a simple understanding of economics would go a long way...

importers who have inefficient models will go out of business its that simple. no one begrudges a normal profit and its everyone's interest that te music shops stick around but when its cheaper to import than by locally (by a long way) then ppl are going to import themselves .... that custom shop fender can be had at 2/3 the price by importing yourself ..the value has already dropped

Tom

IceCreamMan wrote:
link=topic=11943.msg133610#msg133610 wrote: How irritated would the few top end US American custom shop fender owners be if suddenly the price fell through the floor and it wasn't worth half it's previous value?

I spoke to someone that worked for fender SA and I had a new understanding afterwards for the high prices.
Tom , maybe a simple understanding of economics would go a long way...

importers who have inefficient models will go out of business its that simple. no one begrudges a normal profit and its everyone's interest that te music shops stick around but when its cheaper to import than by locally (by a long way) then ppl are going to import themselves .... that custom shop fender can be had at 2/3 the price by importing yourself ..the value has already dropped

Irony; I'm studying Economics and Applied Maths. I think that I might just have a simple understanding of it by now.

So, we know this has been a long run issue for many years, right? cool.
Secondly yes, under perfect competition people will only make economic profits because of free entry and exit.

But when there's branding involved, it no longer applies because licenses to distribute are given to one firm per country. This in essence creates a monopoly over the local industry. Music stores can be taken to court if they are caught reselling imported items from international exporting websites such as amazon.com. This takes a significant amount of blame off off the retailers and it gets shifted back to the local distributors.

Local distributors have high prices FOR A REASON. Not because they want to abuse their monopoly (if this was the case, take them to the competitions commision for unfair use of their monopoly like IS, MWEB, etc. are doing to telkom at the moment) but because Fender stipulates they have to follow specific guidelines. One being that they have to pay R2mil. a year purely to have the license. Another I've heard is that they need to have a fender qualified technician for guarantee purposes. Every fault has to be dealt with by him. Now that's a very specific and hard to come by qualification in the way of any techie around. This means high demand, therefore a relatively high wage.

Now then it comes down to needing to split this fixed cost (which it essentially is) over all your goods sold. As we all know, there aren't many musicians in SA. Even ignoring how expensive it is to ship these guitars safely, it is obvious that your average cost will be raised significantly by these fixed costs. Now you cant even blame the distributor for their prices as they also need to feed families with what they do make from it. I'm not sure that there are many legal business models that can get around these issues legally. And it probably is the case as it has been like this for as long as I have been playing and involved with music.

Importing is still an option, but when I'm spending R20k + on a guitar, I want to be damn sure that if the neck suddenly bows to the extent where the truss rod breaks out the back, it will get fixed free of charge if it was not my fault. Have you ever dealt with customer services from international reselling websites? I sure as hell don't want to know how hard that is to do, how long it will take or how expensive it is to ship backwards and forwards.

Kiera, I wasn't being rude to you with the hating statement. Some people were boarderline attaching the distro's saying that they are trying to rip us off.

Tom

Shot my mouth off in the beginning. Not all the blame off the retailers but a significant proportion as they also have to make something to keep open. And come on, who has paid full retail price?