Look how lovely Madagascar looks without its Rosewood

deefstes · 2011-04-07T15:08:11+00:00

Thought some of you might find today's photo of the day on National Geographic's website interesting. It shows a patch of landscape in Madagascar that has su...

Look how lovely Madagascar looks without its Rosewood

deefstes

Ray wrote: And what about the lemurs?

This is what happens to the lemurs:
http://www.burrard-lucas.com/photo/madagascar/sifakas_jumping.html

Bob-Dubery

Chad Adam Browne wrote: spoke about the general preference for mahogany from South America (Honduras) and also mentioned that in Africa we have our own species of Mahogany, something that began with an S I think.

Sapele. Not a true mahogany, but very similar in many respects - though it doesn't look quite the same.

It's becoming more and more used as the price of mahogany goes up.

There's a luthier in the Lake District in the UK, Roger Bucknall. Roger makes the very good Fylde guitars. I met him a couple of years ago and he told me that he was buying sapele out of South Africa because of ecological issues but also because of the price.

But, he said, it won't last because as more and more people turn away from mahogany to sapele stocks of the latter will come under pressure and then that will become controlled and the price will go up and then, at some point in the future, he has to go looking for alternatives again.

vic

Chad Adam Browne wrote:
X-rated Bob wrote: EG there are only two TRUE mahoganies Swietenia mahagoni, commonly known as Cuban mahogany, and Swietenia macrophylla which is Honduras mahogany. Both of these are indigenous to the Americas, and the wood is currently illegal IF IT IS FELLED IN THE AMERICAS.
.....He had said that his preference was for the South American mahogany as the climate where it was grown caused the wood to be more porous, light and responsive. My question regarding this is whether the sustainable Asian sources would be able to produce a wood with a comparable quality with regards to tone even though their climate is different and would from what I understand cause the density of the wood.....

Chad, I read somewhere (Gibson Forum or MyLesPaul Forum, I'm not sure..) about the Eastern/Islands Honduran Mahogany which Bob mentions above....this is the same specie as the beloved HM. According to one poster, this "eastern" mahogany is somewhat lighter in colour and also lighter in mass (on average). Now I have noticed that many of the newer Gibson Custom shop historics (especially the Goldtops) have this light-coloured backs and necks...these guitars are light in mass...I have one, a '56 RI, weighing around 8.5 pounds and very resonant.
Gibson is also a bit secretive about the origin of the mahogany they use...however they were quite specific to the Q "which mahogany they use"...Honduran they said....but this could be the "Eastern" HM for all we know ?

Keira-WitherKay

for ages i been publically saying that guitarists for some reason are tremendously traditional and staid in their views..... of what their instrument should be made out of...... and for years alternate materials have been available and used to excellent result ..... composite materials are available that make incredible sounding instruments but the companies seem to run into a brick wall with the buying market cos of excisting opinions of composite intruments..... and like with anything the more people use and buy carbon fibre or composite instruments the lower the price will drop in relation ...... but personally i have heard some amazing composite guitars ......and i guess just like with wood the companies can change the density of the material to create different tones so i would think that given the market to support the research and development ...composite instruments could be the way to go.......

and just cos we think the guitar buying community is so small........ that it makes no difference ....... think again ...... as we know every little bit helps....... BUT i also believe just like the OIL companies don't want electric cars to take over , the vintage 2nd hand market / independant luthier and guitar companies making wooden instruments would suffer if they had to retool for carbon fibre and i'm sure major companies who make top end instruments own a huge chunk of market share...... that they don't wanna lose , so i wouldnt be surprised if they not 'encouraging" the change to composite naterials..and even fuel the fire on debates that "nothing can compare to some rare wood" cos again it's all about the corporate dollars they stand to make or lose

singemonkey

Erm. Most African Mahogany is Khaya - which is a true mahogany. And yes, it sounds exactly the same. Gil Sharon, who makes possibly the most accurate replicas of '50s Les Pauls, is convinced that they used African Mahogany on at least the example he examined. It's very difficult to tell from Honduras Mahogany. But it is cheaper - probably because it's being unsustainably harvested from our continent, I wouldn't be surprised.

As Vic says, Honduras Mahogany, and Cuban Mahogany as far as I know come from plantations in Asia first put down by the Dutch. Growing conditions will definitely affect these species more than the species itself. African, Honduran, and Cuban mahogany can all be heavy or light, plain or figured. Gibson started using the really heavy stuff in the '70s which ultimately led to the weight relief and chambering - given that they were producing so many more guitars than in the '50s and '60s, this is understandable.

Malkav

singemonkey wrote: Erm. Most African Mahogany is Khaya - which is a true mahogany.

I've noticed that alot of the Ibanez J-Customs seem to be made from "African Mahogany", in the article I read regarding that build of the Javelin the luthier did point out he finds the African varieties to be heavier and prone to be stronger in the lower end than in the mid-range...I find everytime I think about all of the different varieties of wood within a family and what a difference you can get between them in terms of sound, being that everything from Mahogany to Alder to Basswood have several different varities that all sound different and look different and all the other less common woods probably follow suite, I just end up with this major feeling of...

singemonkey

I'm pretty sure it's all about the weight with true mahoganies. Light African and Light Honduras both exist and both sound pretty much the same. Likewise heavy African and heavy Honduras.

Wizard

Another angle.
It isn't difficult to develop sustainable supplies of trees - you just plant new ones when you cut them down.
The tricky part is finding the investors; because the returns are reasonably long-term.

Here's another example.
There is a tree called SneezeWood which grows indigenously in South Africa.
It is the best wood for marimba keys - rings like a bell.
Even better than Madagascan Rosewood.

Evolution dealt it a terrible blow though - because it also burns with a furious heat and is impervious to insect attack and never rots.
So ... between smelting plants needing hot burning fuel ... and the need for ever-lasting fence posts, the Sneezewoods have all but been wiped out.

But ... it grows really easily.
Just needs someone to show an interest in planting it.

Funny how investors will worry about making sure there's a stock of 30 year old whisky, but not trees.

IceCreamMan

Wizard wrote: Funny how investors will worry about making sure there's a stock of 30 year old whisky, but not trees.

yeah, and?

Wizard

IceCreamMan wrote: yeah, and?

And at least you'll be able to use a good Scotch to help you mourn the loss of all the good tonewood ?

[deleted]

vic wrote: ...however ONLY as recent as March 2010 did the Malagasy government finally announce a ban of their rosewood export for a period between 2 and 5 years.

2 - 5 years is hardly enough time to reforest a 1x1m patch of garden, let alone 'huuuuge tracts o' land'..?! Try 20 - 50 years... Sheesh. That photo is beyond disturbing - like cavities in teeth. Brrrrr.

flatfourfan

That picture still makes it look nice and green. I go to madagascar for work a lot and it's deff not green..some flying in over the island and you can see that it's actually brown.

People fighting over what little resources remain on the island as well as foreign companies mining the chromium, gold, sapphires etc...it's a shame.

IceCreamMan

MoreCowBell wrote:
vic wrote: ...however ONLY as recent as March 2010 did the Malagasy government finally announce a ban of their rosewood export for a period between 2 and 5 years.
2 - 5 years is hardly enough time to reforest a 1x1m patch of garden, let alone 'huuuuge tracts o' land'..?! Try 20 - 50 years... Sheesh. That photo is beyond disturbing - like cavities in teeth. Brrrrr.

Reforesting would not be done 1 x 1 m at a time i would think but all the 1 x 1 metres concurrently ,but then i could be wrong on this.

[deleted]

IceCreamMan wrote:
MoreCowBell wrote:
vic wrote: ...however ONLY as recent as March 2010 did the Malagasy government finally announce a ban of their rosewood export for a period between 2 and 5 years.
2 - 5 years is hardly enough time to reforest a 1x1m patch of garden, let alone 'huuuuge tracts o' land'..?! Try 20 - 50 years... Sheesh. That photo is beyond disturbing - like cavities in teeth. Brrrrr.
Reforesting would not be done 1 x 1 m at a time i would think but all the 1 x 1 metres concurrently ,but then i could be wrong on this.

Seriously?! I always thought they only planted one tree a decade... ?

tentop

You're not looking on the bright side. Once all the rosewood is finished, the existing instruments are going to be worth a lot more!

Bob-Dubery

tentop wrote: You're not looking on the bright side. Once all the rosewood is finished, the existing instruments are going to be worth a lot more!

There are plenty of sustainable, well managed rosewood plantations. Most East Indian rosewood is sourced from such plantations and has been for years. So rosewood isn't going to vanish off the face of the earth any time soon.

The instruments that are going to appreciate in value are those made with Brazilian rosewood. This is supposed to be the tone wood of tone woods and supposedly nothing else matches it. Madagascar rosewood supposedly gets close to the tone but not the look.

Note that you still get Brazilian rosewood from time to time on new instruments. Usually the prohibition is on felling a tree, but if a tree falls over it's not going to pick itself up and replant itself so that wood will find it's way onto the market. This is legitimate and there should be certification to show that the wood was obtained legally.

It will be the same with Madagascar rosewood and any other protected wood. It's use in an instrument or a piece of furniture is not automatically illegal.

Wizard

MoreCowBell wrote: Seriously?! I always thought they only planted one tree a decade... ?

They're not even planting one tree a decade ... and that's the problem ☹

Ray

X-rated Bob wrote: Note that you still get Brazilian rosewood from time to time on new instruments. Usually the prohibition is on felling a tree, but if a tree falls over it's not going to pick itself up and replant itself so that wood will find it's way onto the market. This is legitimate and there should be certification to show that the wood was obtained legally.

Which is also a problem. That wood is meant to decay and make it's contribution to what is going to grow after. It is for that reason that they cut your goolies off if you try and take wood out of nature reserves like KNP.

Bob-Dubery

Ray wrote:
X-rated Bob wrote: Note that you still get Brazilian rosewood from time to time on new instruments. Usually the prohibition is on felling a tree, but if a tree falls over it's not going to pick itself up and replant itself so that wood will find it's way onto the market. This is legitimate and there should be certification to show that the wood was obtained legally.
Which is also a problem. That wood is meant to decay and make it's contribution to what is going to grow after. It is for that reason that they cut your goolies off if you try and take wood out of nature reserves like KNP.

Thank you, Ray. I have not heard this point made as succintly ?

But you can drive yourself crazy with this kind of thinking. Seriously. You might start thinking about what's in the beer your enjoying and the barley and hops that didn't fall to the ground and decay, or what's going to fill in the hole in the ground, small that it is, that the CD I'm listening to left behind.

Jack-Flash-Jr

X-rated Bob wrote:
Ray wrote:
X-rated Bob wrote: Note that you still get Brazilian rosewood from time to time on new instruments. Usually the prohibition is on felling a tree, but if a tree falls over it's not going to pick itself up and replant itself so that wood will find it's way onto the market. This is legitimate and there should be certification to show that the wood was obtained legally.
Which is also a problem. That wood is meant to decay and make it's contribution to what is going to grow after. It is for that reason that they cut your goolies off if you try and take wood out of nature reserves like KNP.
Thank you, Ray. I have not heard this point made as succintly ?

But you can drive yourself crazy with this kind of thinking. Seriously. You might start thinking about what's in the beer your enjoying and the barley and hops that didn't fall to the ground and decay, or what's going to fill in the hole in the ground, small that it is, that the CD I'm listening to left behind.

You too will fall to the ground and decay ?

Edit: that wasn't a threat! Just a simplistic reductionist all is one jibe.