replica of torres paper mache back and sides classical

Keira-WitherKay

some think this guitar is a myth but it actually still exists and a recent 2005 replica is played in video below......... for those of you who arn't aware Torres (who finalised the design of the classical guitar in mid 1800's to the classical guitar as we know it today always argued that a guitars back and sides had little to do with the overal tone if the top and bracing was done correctly .so to prove his point he actually built a guitar with paper mache back and sides and had renown players use it ......... anyway watch the video of the replica which sounds awesome then ask yourself if he (torres) had a point

Antonio Torres's papier mache guitar which is currently in the possession of la Museu De La Musica in Barcelona. Jose Romanillos has cataloged this guitar as FE14 in his book Antonio de Torres: Guitar Maker - His Life and Work. Its back and sides were made of papier mache reinforced by a grid of cedar and transverse bars of pine. It was an experimental guitar made by Torres to prove his theories regarding the relative unimportance of the woods used for the back and the sides. The instrument supposedly first belonged to Tarrega and then to Llobet.

FE14 is reputed to have exhibited excellent tone, supporting Torres's theories. I have not heard it, but Pepe had mentioned that this guitar is recorded in the accompanying CD to La Chitarra di Liuteria - Masterpieces of Guitar Making (link to PDF sample of the book).

Jose Romanillos seems to provide supporting testimony to the guitar's excellent tone but he also seems to leave open the question of the guitar's projection. Apparently, FE14 is in such poor condition following multiple restorations that its original projection cannot be accurately assessed.

I guess my question for this discussion is whether Torres's theories are still relevant today and what they actually prove. Are the chosen materials for backs and sides really that unimportant to tone? Are they, however, more important to projection? Does this mean that a guitar of laminated B/S can be made to rival a guitar of solid woods? Is the perception of "improved tone" from B/S mostly in our heads and can we happily migrate to alternate tonewoods?

anyway so one could conclude that solid tops are important but maybe the back and sides can be made of alternate material and the guitar will still sound traditional.cos with classical guitars we are looking for that traditional 1860's tone torres made famous ......... and to my ears this "paper mache" /composite guitar sounds as good as i have heard ........ so maybe the future can be more "green" for guitars with ony the tops and necks being important .......... i'm buying into this ....... ?

so how much is just 'marketing" re back and sides ? and the fortunes some people are paying for brazillian rare woods on the guitar when paper mache and pine could be just as good .......... excellent truthful marketing or a con to inflate prices on the back of rare wood............

let your ears be the judge ....... listen to this video then at will download as many classical video's and yes tones will vary but this "paper mache" guitar sounds as good as what is out there

Keira-WitherKay

oh just wanted to add. i'm not advocating we make cardboard guitars ? NOT AT ALL . torres just did that to prove his point but just that maybe less importance could be given to backs and sides and maybe use renewable resources instead of rare woods....on the back and sides....... and hopefully still get a good world class instrument if the top and neck is done correctly

raithza

That's interesting... Can't really judge the tone of the guitar from the clip BUT I do remember reading comments on this forum that would contradict such a statement... for one, classical guitarists tend to play without the back of the guitar touching their bodies to allow the sound to project, the second comment was a recording tip saying that you can try micing an acoustic (in this case steel string) guitar by placing the mic behind the player so as to capture sound projected from the back... I can't seem to find either thread now though, blah...

And yeah even though both comments I mention above have to do with projection and not tone per se... If a lot of the sound is coming from the back then surely whatever material the back is made from should have an influence on how the guitar sounds?

AlanRatcliffe

I once mentioned recording from behind with the mics near the players ears to capture what they hear when they play (which is not what the audience hears). That might be what you are thinking of.

It's true that nothing is so rigid that it does not project some sound (neck, back and sides), but Torres was merely showing that these things are nowhere near as important to the tone as the top of the guitar.

Gearhead

Even if projection is adversely affected by a belly touching it that does not mean that you need the back to be high end wood to project in the first place.
I first read about the Torres paper mache guitar when Honduras still had plenty of Mahogany, and in the mean time some American companies proved that you can make rather poor sounding guitars with a plastic back. They sold lots, though, probably through good marketing and lower cost. My first point is that you should not expect to be as good as Torres and my second that the argument for making different choices for materials should be good price/performance properties. I'm maybe not as green thinking as Keira...

Ray

And some companies have made acoustic guitars with no wood wotsoever that sound great. And other companies have used stuff similar to formica for b and s and just solid wood for the top and reviews reckon they great. But people arer spending plenty thousands of their hard-earned (I guess) cash on all solid wood guitars and now this discussion. Have a heart!

Bob-Dubery

Well the back and sides DO make a difference. You can test this quite easily by playing two examples of the same shaped guitar from the same manufacturer with different wood for the back and sides - providing it's solid wood for the back and sides. EG 3 series OM-shaped Larrivees - one rosewood and one mahogany. They will sound different. Get an example with maple back and sides and you'll really notice a difference from rosewood.

It does though seem to be that it is that a good top - decent wood, properly braced etc - that makes the MAJOR contribution to a good sound. The back and sides add colour, but if the top is crap you won't get a good sound out of the guitar.I believe that this is what Torres set out to demonstrate.