How to spot a fake Jose Ramirez?

Conrad

Hi All

I need input. I played a Jose Ramirez on Saturday (a 3nae) and I am thinking of buying it but something is worrying me. The Rosette almost looks pixelated like the typical effect you get when you take a low resolution image and stretch it. So now I am obviously worried that it might be a fake (no I am not accusing the shop whom I won't mention anyway as there are other more likely possibilities should this be true).
Even if the sound is great I will not buy a counterfeit product but how on earth do i find out?

I have tried finding high res pics of this model and zooming in on the rosette but none were high enough res for me to be conclusive?

It is VERY hard to contact Jose Ramirez directly becaue 1.) They don't seem to want to disclose an email address to the public and 2.) have you tried speaking English to a Spaniard via phone?

Any input would be appreciated.

Kind regards
Conrad Pienaar

Bob-Dubery

Conrad wrote: Hi All

I need input. I played a Jose Ramirez on Saturday (a 3nae) and I am thinking of buying it but something is worrying me. The Rosette almost looks pixelated like the typical effect you get when you take a low resolution image and stretch it. So now I am obviously worried that it might be a fake (no I am not accusing the shop whom I won't mention anyway as there are other more likely possibilities should this be true).
Even if the sound is great I will not buy a counterfeit product but how on earth do i find out?

The rosette on a hand made guitar often does look pixillate. That's because they are made out of individual little blocks of wood/bone/whatever.

Look at this one (from a maker I have met)

or this one

Look at them close enough and you will see the little blocks/pixels

Some other aspects...
1) Is it a reputable store with staff that know about guitars?
2) WHat's the workmanship on the guitar like? If it's a fake it's unlikely to look well made once you start examining it
3) Look for a Ramirez forum. Take a photo of the label and share that with the forum and see what they say
4) Look at the fittings - the tuners, the saddle and so on. Are they good quality or do they scream "I'm cheap"?
5) What does the shop know about the seller and about Ramirez in general?

In general it's unlikely that a guitar that plays well, sounds good and is well built is a fake. You're an experienced enough player to judge the sound and the playability. However a Ramirez is unlikely to cost peanuts, so satisfy yourself that it's the real thing.

Conrad

X-rated Bob wrote: Some other aspects...
1) Is it a reputable store with staff that know about guitars?

Yes I am pretty sure u have been there too. Would actually like to drag you there to use your eye (shameless i know, sorry) I offer lunch in return. ?

X-rated Bob wrote: 2) WHat's the workmanship on the guitar like? If it's a fake it's unlikely to look well made once you start examining it

This looks good on said guitar. A higher model in the same shop shows some glue at the neck join though which I think is really bad for such a name.

X-rated Bob wrote: 3) Look for a Ramirez forum. Take a photo of the label and share that with the forum and see what they say

Good idea. Thanks, will do.

X-rated Bob wrote: 4) Look at the fittings - the tuners, the saddle and so on. Are they good quality or do they scream "I'm cheap"?

I'll tka epics and send them to you as I am too cheap to see this for myself. ?

X-rated Bob wrote: 5) What does the shop know about the seller and about Ramirez in general?

Less than me, which worries me.

X-rated Bob wrote: In general it's unlikely that a guitar that plays well, sounds good and is well built is a fake. You're an experienced enough player to judge the sound and the playability. However a Ramirez is unlikely to cost peanuts, so satisfy yourself that it's the real thing.

It sounds good but I think I am comparing it to the van den Berg hand mades which is maybe a mistake since they are totally handmade and this is not a high end Ramirez.

The 2nd image u posted showed the level of pixelation I saw.

C

Bob-Dubery

Conrad wrote:
X-rated Bob wrote: 4) Look at the fittings - the tuners, the saddle and so on. Are they good quality or do they scream "I'm cheap"?
I'll tka epics and send them to you as I am too cheap to see this for myself. ?

Well how do the tuners feel? Cheap tuners.... well they don't feel good. What are the buttons made of? Etc etc.... you may not recognise the brand but an experienced player should know what a decent tuner feels like when you turn it.

The saddle... slacken off the strings and take it out of the bridge. Drop it onto a glass surface. A saddle made from bone or a high quality artificial material such as micarta or tusq will make a pinging, ringing noise on impact. Cheap plastic won't. The difference is quite distinct.

For the interest of whoever is reading, here's a page explaining how mosaic rosettes for hand built instruments get made and that may help you understand why, if you look closely, they will have a pixillated appearance
http://gicl.cs.drexel.edu/people/sevy/luthierie/guitarmaking_guide/rosette_making/rosette_making.html

Conrad

I don't think the shop would let me do that ☹. I'll check the tuners though.

guidothepimmp

dont have much interest in classical guits but im finding this real interesting..

love those hand made rosettes.. theyre awesome.. think im going to some reading..

Conrad

I'll take a photo of the rosette and post it here.

Bob-Dubery

Conrad, this is like going into a posh restaurant (or, even more fun, a restaurant that just thinks it's posh).

You order a bottle of wine and INSIST on a taste. You taste, swill it around, spit out into an empty glass and then ask for a square (about 1 inch will do) of fresh, unbuttered, white bread. You announce that this is to cleanse your palette prior to a 2nd taste and chew thoughtfully for 20 seconds or so. You may swallow, but you may also discretely remove this object from your mouth. You then take a 2nd taste and then make a very grand show of swilling it around. You spit it out into the glass, proclaim it "average, verging on filth" but tell them you'll accept it anyway.

By now the schmucks who are serving you will be convinced that you are the meneer when it comes to wine.

Same thing with pulling that saddle out and letting it drop on the table. This sends out a signal that you a discerning man (even if they're not) and that you know ivory from cheap plastic (even if they don't) and they will KNOW that you know your oats (even if you don't).

Conrad

X-rated Bob wrote: Conrad, this is like going into a posh restaurant (or, even more fun, a restaurant that just thinks it's posh).

You order a bottle of wine and INSIST on a taste. You taste, swill it around, spit out into an empty glass and then ask for a square (about 1 inch will do) of fresh, unbuttered, white bread. You announce that this is to cleanse your palette prior to a 2nd taste and chew thoughtfully for 20 seconds or so. You may swallow, but you may also discretely remove this object from your mouth. You then take a 2nd taste and then make a very grand show of swilling it around. You spit it out into the glass, proclaim it "average, verging on filth" but tell them you'll accept it anyway.

By now the schmucks who are serving you will be convinced that you are the meneer when it comes to wine.

Same thing with pulling that saddle out and letting it drop on the table. This sends out a signal that you a discerning man (even if they're not) and that you know ivory from cheap plastic (even if they don't) and they will KNOW that you know your oats (even if you don't).

I don't mind trying. Will let u know how it turns out if I live! ?

U r right though. I'll have to draw on my inner ego if only I can find it.

guidothepimmp

Bob

excellent post.. thats brilliant

Conrad

Yes +1. Thanks Bob. Which accent should I use whilst chatting with shopkeeper? I was thinking ....something that conveys sophistication but also danger.

AlanRatcliffe

Good advice from Bob already re the rosette. That is the traditional way they are made and while inlays have made inroads on steel acoustics, the nylon builders mostly stick to the tradition.

Also, bouncing the saddle off of a plate glass countertop is the standard way for testing saddles and nuts. Even with known bone saddles - they are inconsistent, so it's a useful way to get the measure between a few different examples. You get used to the incredulous looks, but if they are worth their weight, the sales staff will listen to the results and learn something. I've known nylon players who continually swap saddles to find the saddle that works best for a specific guitar, and even one who keeps a small selection in her case and will swap them out to "suit the room".

I doubt it's a fake, if someone were going to make a fake, they would copy one of the guitars actually made by Ramirez (like the SP1), rather than one of the outsourced models like the 3NAE.

Here's a good set of pics of the 3NAE, if that helps. It's a bit large, so I'll just link to it:
http://acousticcentre.com.au/uploadedFiles/1266466899165-8755.jpg

Conrad

Alan Ratcliffe wrote: Good advice from Bob already re the rosette. That is the traditional way they are made and while inlays have made inroads on steel acoustics, the nylon builders mostly stick to the tradition.

Also, bouncing the saddle off of a plate glass countertop is the standard way for testing saddles and nuts. Even with known bone saddles - they are inconsistent, so it's a useful way to get the measure between a few different examples. You get used to the incredulous looks, but if they are worth their weight, the sales staff will listen to the results and learn something. I've known nylon players who continually swap saddles to find the saddle that works best for a specific guitar, and even one who keeps a small selection in her case and will swap them out to "suit the room".

I doubt it's a fake, if someone were going to make a fake, they would copy one of the guitars actually made by Ramirez (like the SP1), rather than one of the outsourced models like the 3NAE.

Here's a good set of pics of the 3NAE, if that helps. It's a bit large, so I'll just link to it:
http://acousticcentre.com.au/uploadedFiles/1266466899165-8755.jpg

OK there I got a good view of the Rosette. Thanks a lot Alan. I will now be able to check if they match.

Quite intrigued by relationship between saddle and room.

You are right about it not being worthwhile to fake the lower models. Thanks for good reasoning there.

Regards
C

AlanRatcliffe

Quite intrigued by relationship between saddle and room.

With bone you can get quite a variance in tone, some saddles are dense and heavy and others light and porous and they do affect the response of the instrument. I don't personally subscribe to changing saddles for rooms (I try get the guitar to sound it's best, regardless of the room), but I understand the idea.

Conrad

OK fears allayed. Rosette is the same as the picture ALAN posted and tuners do seem like high quality. Also really amazing finish on back and sides.

Only downside is that I have now fallen in love with a more expensive model onthe floor ☹ It has a Cedar top and sounds SO natural. A little like the James Grace tone on his World Cafe album.

These things are subjective but I am excited so...

Conrad

Can anyone see the pic? Sorry I don't know if I only have a problem on my side.

Sean

Can see the pic ?

vic

Conrad wrote: Yes +1. Thanks Bob. Which accent should I use whilst chatting with shopkeeper? I was thinking ....something that conveys sophistication but also danger.

Sicilian will have the desired affect I'm sure...and wear a hat ..then announce that you are making an offer they should not refuse.... 8)

Keira-WitherKay

so conrad just catching up to this thread now...... things a bit hectic as you know ... but i would doubt a reputable music store would knowingly sell you a fake ramirez ...... anyway with a store you will have a comeback if you discover it is a fake.....but if you saying it sounds (tone wise ) like guitars the likes of james grace uses........ then buy the damn thing without worrying if it's a fake or not ....anyway technically all the lower models except the professional series is to some degree's a fake ? ( when comparing a low end rameriz ( what they call student models ) to what sergovia plays ) ramirez openly admits to subcontracting all but their top line and custom builds to outside factories , and then just quality controlled by ramirez ........ buy hey who cares whats on the label if the guitar has tone.....and in rameriz's case it will have ramirez on the label too .... and i assume it's priced reasonably ... cos a better rameriz will cost you about 30K to 60K even higher depending on models and vintage..... hugh from hugh's fine guitars had a top end one( A1) for about 30 K a while back ( which he originally told me the seller wanted about 50K for but obviously could not find a local buyer so reduced it to about 30 ) i was tempted ? but i doubt i would pay that much for a guitar ..... anyway if the one you looking at is anywhere near 20 K give hugh a call and see if he has any in stock .....and for a bit more moolah you could get the "real deal" as in an A1 with brazillian rosewood back and sides from 70's .......

however i could never understand that ramirez could have such rich tone which i and every other nylon player would desire but they are world renown for being notoriously difficult instruments in the playabilty department .normally with high actions .....

anyway let us know if you the proud owner of a ramirez ? they beautiful guitars ....yes even the student models..... and what a tradition to buy into too.....

Conrad

Keira WitherKay wrote: so conrad just catching up to this thread now...... things a bit hectic as you know ... but i would doubt a reputable music store would knowingly sell you a fake ramirez ...... anyway with a store you will have a comeback if you discover it is a fake.....but if you saying it sounds (tone wise ) like guitars the likes of james grace uses........ then buy the damn thing without worrying if it's a fake or not ....anyway technically all the lower models except the professional series is to some degree's a fake ? ( when comparing a low end rameriz ( what they call student models ) to what sergovia plays ) ramirez openly admits to subcontracting all but their top line and custom builds to outside factories , and then just quality controlled by ramirez ........ buy hey who cares whats on the label if the guitar has tone......... and i assume it's priced reasonably ... cos a better rameriz will cost you about 30K to 60K even higher depending on models and vintage..... hugh from hugh's fine guitars had a top end one( A1) for about 30 K a while back ( which he originally told me the seller wanted about 50K for but obviously could not find a local buyer so reduced it to about 30 ) i was tempted ? but i doubt i would pay that much for a guitar ..... anyway if the one you looking at is anywhere near 20 K give hugh a call and see if he has any in stock .....and for a bit more moolah you could get the "real deal" as in an A1 with brazillian rosewood back and sides from 70's .......

however i could never understand that ramirez could have such rich tone which i and every other nylon player would desire but they are world renown for being notoriously difficult instruments in the playabilty department .normally with high actions .....

anyway let us know if you the proud owner of a ramirez ? they beautiful guitars ....yes even the student models..... and what a tradition to buy into too.....

There is a nice Cedar top one (R4) there now. When i go again, I'll phone you. If you are not at Sun City, we can go together. I would like your ear and input if you are available.