Is there really such a thing as a bad guitar?

Tonedef

Well? I own a cheap strat clone, and there's not really much to complain about apart from a few niggles that I've sorted or that still need work, such as a buzzing fret or two. All in all I'm quite satisfied with it, in the end the guitar's quality far exceeds my own, and isnt that the truly important bit?

What new, expensive guitar doesnt need fiddling with? Does a new guitar exist today that destroys the efforts of even the most talented player?

Bob-Dubery

Well it's an interesting question. I think the answer is "yes".

I think back to the initiative that Keira and I got involved in (her involvement was greater than my own) in which a guy in hospital got given a helping hand up the first few rungs of guitar playing.

He had a guitar that was really very bad. A Cash Converters brand - not a 2nd hand guitar but one of the cheap acoustics they sell. As bought it didn't even have a proper set of strings on it. The 3 wound strings were all the same gauge - no wonder it wouldn't stay in tune! High action, very badly cut nut. Steel string but no adjustable truss rod. Crappy tuners.... blah blah blah It could be improved but it was never going to be up to much.

Luckily a 2nd hand nylon string guitar was donated. This needed a new nut. Getting a new nut and strings for that guitar was cheaper than getting the "CC special" whipped into half-decent shape.

It's possible that the "CC special" could have been worked on until it was reasonable - but to do that would have been to over capitalise. And you could have got a decent 2nd hand nylon string guitar for less money.

Guitars like this discourage a lot of people who think it's them when really it's the guitar - but they don't know enough to know that it's the guitar.

Bob-Dubery

Tonedef wrote: What new, expensive guitar doesnt need fiddling with? Does a new guitar exist today that destroys the efforts of even the most talented player?

I'm told that Tokais out of the box need very little doing to them. Maybe a tweak on the truss rod after they've been shipped from Japan to SA. That's pretty good.

Generally expensive guitars are often not perfect out of the box, but they take a lot less work than cheaper guitars do. McGibbons can set up a new Larrivee much quicker than they can a new [fill in the name of a cheap brand].

vic

Check this out ?

.....".this site is dedicated to really bad guitars. The price on any of the axes shown here may vary from $10 to $200, and you are strongly adviced not to buy them - unless you're a bizzaria collector. "

http://cheesyguitars.com/guitars.html

singemonkey

Yeah. An expensive guitar should not need tweaking except to change to an owner's preference. There should be nothing wrong with it. It is legitimate to be angry at a company that charges you a lot of money for a guitar but can't be arsed to do some basic quality control.

Japanese companies in general have a reputation for doing QC well. ESP, Yamaha (my Yamaha has never been adjusted since I bought it in 2004 and it still plays perfectly), etc..

Among American companies, PRS has a reputation for excellent setup and QC, although I can't confirm this.

There are definitely guitars that are pretty much unfixable. The Hondo (which was, interestingly, Japanese-made) was widely available in the '70s an '80s and developed a deserved reputation for being appalling rubbish. A couple of friends had Hondo acoustics which had necks so bowed as to force them to give up guitar. I had a Hondo banjo which a guitar tech who happened to be staying in my house pulled apart and worked on and that made it kinda playable up to the 5th fret. But I realised a while ago that it was actually retarding my playing. Will get a new banjo one of these days (maybe a 2nd hand Tokai if I can nab one ?).

VellaJ

I came across a Hofner Galaxy (or Galaxie?) recently available for a certain amount of money in a pawn shop. The owner claimed that it's a collectors' item because it's so old. It's actually not, it's just an old bit of rubbish with half the parts missing... Either way, the setup was so bad that when you played up the neck, you would be hearing the note half a tone higher than you were playing, as the strings encountered the next fret so well that there wasn't even buzzing. I don't even know if that's fixable!

You also get the Behringer guitars. Behringer don't actually make guitars, they buy Chinese guitars at the lowest possible price in bulk and stamp their names on them. This means that they're badly made (I've seen the bridges put on at about a 10 degree angle) and the pickups are shocking. You can replace the pups and get passable sound from them, but by that time you may as well have bought a decent guitar in the first place.

I'm personally running a Chinese Strat-style Epiphone, which cost me (second-hand) R1,200. I love it! Sure, it's no Strat in terms of sound, but the pups are good and the playability is right "up there." So as long as you stick to the reputable brands, even their cheap Chinese counterparts will be decent.

deefstes

I also think the answer is "yes". My first nylons string was a cheap pawn shop guitar. I guess I was lucky that it wasn't terrible but it wasn't good either. The box had almost no resonance to it and the guitar sounded dead. Years later I bought myself a decent Takamine and I was amazed at how much better a guitar can sound.

Like I say, I was lucky that the first guitar wasn't terrible because I had a friend in school who had a terrible guitar. The action and fret buzz was so bad that you'd fret a G and the string would ring at G# or A where it made contact with the wrong fret. This friend ended up ditching the guitar and gave up on playing. The world is at least one guitarist poorer because some cheap nincompoop company built that crappy guitar.

Seventhson

Yes like this one?

But I was lucky I bought my guitar for a R1000 off my friend. Was an Ibenaz GIO. Not to bad for a beginners guitar.

But I have seen shocking cheapo electric guitars. One guitar I saw needed the frets shaved bec they were sticking out and would cut into your hand:O

---mario---

I have a GIO and have to say they aren't bad at all for their price, the necks are good, just the electronics are bad and they don't keep tune as well either. If you don't mind a guitar made of basswood, I'd recomend them. You also have to considder there are GIOs and then there are GIOs....... ???

BMU

Yes, but. Low ranges from respectable companies today (GIOs etc) are perfectly playable. I don't think it was like that in the 80s. Computer aided manufacturing has helped tighten up the tolerances a lot at the lower end. That's my theory.

Just don't grab a Cash Converters "new" guitar (those SX's etc. Maybe they're ok but I doubt it. Cash Converters 2nd hand bargains are not what I'm talking about now.) Cort, GIO, Squier etc, these are pretty ok.

Re Hondo - oh the painful memories. When I started I wanted an electric, so obviously my old man got me a Hondo acoustic. Torture and anguish. Eventually I bought a buddy's decrepit strat copy, I think it was a "Kumika".

Those two pieces of sh*t probably cost me 2-3 years in guitar development. When I got my first respectable mid-cheap range electric (a Yamaha), it was a revelation.

Tonedef

My strat is a cash crusaders special, and its virtually identical to the cheap arias and whatnot you see hanging at muso shops. From the shape, neck, fretboard, saddles, tuners, bridge, knobs, everything is 100% identical. The only thing different I could spot is that mine has a built in tuner on the top arch. I think the basic strat knockoff design has been perfected by the asian cloners, for all we know they all come from the same sweatshop too.

Norman86

Identical... But is the quality the same???

aubs1

singemonkey wrote: Yeah. An expensive guitar should not need tweaking except to change to an owner's preference.

Absolutely, I have yet to have a brand new guitar "set up", minor tweak here and there, like intonation because of if I change my string gauge....that's basically it!

singemonkey wrote: Among American companies, PRS has a reputation for excellent setup and QC, although I can't confirm this.

I can, I have two ......... did nothing, they're just perfect.....well at least for me ......

When I bought my son's Taylor BB, it was also because of it's near flawless set up and suburb playability (more so to suit his 9 year old hands) ........ just needed a truss rod tweak, and it's perfect.... and the sound (tone quality) is excellent .....

singemonkey

Tonedef wrote: My strat is a cash crusaders special, and its virtually identical to the cheap arias and whatnot you see hanging at muso shops. From the shape, neck, fretboard, saddles, tuners, bridge, knobs, everything is 100% identical. The only thing different I could spot is that mine has a built in tuner on the top arch. I think the basic strat knockoff design has been perfected by the asian cloners, for all we know they all come from the same sweatshop too.

That fret-unevenness is telling Tonedef. I'm not trying to bring you down, but that's kind of the issue with these off-off-brand guitars. But the question was whether it's terminal. You can almost certainly get yours playing nicely - but that must be factored into what you paid for the guitar. These cheapies are often not so cheap when you have to make major repairs to get them playable.

And please don't think I'm dissing you. It takes experience to know that stuff. I didn't know squat about guitars when I bought my first electric. The guitar was bad and had dodgy electronics, but by sheer luck it was pretty playable.

What many of us advise beginners who come asking on the forum is: Buy the best, most expensive (insofar as they go together), guitar you can, and don't compromise an inch to be able to afford an amp, a strap, a distortion pedal, a guitar pick, anything. Because the playability of the guitar is essential to being able to learn to play. None of the other stuff is. You can buy it later when you have the loot.

A 2nd hand Ibanez or Yamaha is almost guaranteed to give you the freedom to develop.

Oh. BTW. There are a lot of different sweatshops. As manufacturers move from factory to factory - even within the same country (Korea for example) - you get major differences in quality. As regards Asian clones? An ESP strat will tend to be better than most USA strats. Some will argue the same for Tokai. But a rush job using the poorest materials and least prepared workers coming out of a Chinese factory is a different matter entirely.

Tonedef

Norman86 wrote: Identical... But is the quality the same???

There are no visible differences in build quality that I could see.

singemonkey

Playability - and many other quality factors - are not visible.

Norman86

singemonkey wrote:
Tonedef wrote: My strat is a cash crusaders special, and its virtually identical to the cheap arias and whatnot you see hanging at muso shops. From the shape, neck, fretboard, saddles, tuners, bridge, knobs, everything is 100% identical. The only thing different I could spot is that mine has a built in tuner on the top arch. I think the basic strat knockoff design has been perfected by the asian cloners, for all we know they all come from the same sweatshop too.
That fret-unevenness is telling Tonedef. I'm not trying to bring you down, but that's kind of the issue with these off-off-brand guitars. But the question was whether it's terminal. You can almost certainly get yours playing nicely - but that must be factored into what you paid for the guitar. These cheapies are often not so cheap when you have to make major repairs to get them playable.

And please don't think I'm dissing you. It takes experience to know that stuff. I didn't know squat about guitars when I bought my first electric. The guitar was bad and had dodgy electronics, but by sheer luck it was pretty playable.

What many of us advise beginners who come asking on the forum is: Buy the best, most expensive (insofar as they go together), guitar you can, and don't compromise an inch to be able to afford an amp, a strap, a distortion pedal, a guitar pick, anything. Because the playability of the guitar is essential to being able to learn to play. None of the other stuff is. You can buy it later when you have the loot.

A 2nd hand Ibanez or Yamaha is almost guaranteed to give you the freedom to develop.

Oh. BTW. There are a lot of different sweatshops. As manufacturers move from factory to factory - even within the same country (Korea for example) - you get major differences in quality. As regards Asian clones? An ESP strat will tend to be better than most USA strats. Some will argue the same for Tokai. But a rush job using the poorest materials and least prepared workers coming out of a Chinese factory is a different matter entirely.

+1 to what Singe says here...
My first guitar was a? Fender strat! can i play? hell no! Im still in the beginning stages! But playing on a quality instrument makes a huge difference , knowing that if there IS a problem, its with you and NOT the guitar!

Tonedef

singemonkey wrote: And please don't think I'm dissing you. It takes experience to know that stuff. I didn't know squat about guitars when I bought my first electric. The guitar was bad and had dodgy electronics, but by sheer luck it was pretty playable.

Hey, don't think that I think you're dissing me, I understand 100% what you're saying.

I've had a fair few guitars in my hands over the years and this one didn't shout "I'm a piece of kuck, don't take me home" at me - it was mutually agreeable ? I know it's probably a silly thing to say but I never got the feeling that this is a cheap guitar, not when I bought it or even with the little niggles I sorted. When I play and practise with it, I still feel like it was an utter bargain at the price (Included 15W practice amp and stand for R1359). For a beginner, it was a no-brainer.

There were 2nd-hand axes on display as well, but I have a personal thing against stuff that's been manhandled for long hours by strangers. Not a germ-o-phobia as such, just a preference for shiny and new.

It's not that I'm trying to justify the purchase, I've held some beautiful guitars that make mine look like a garden implement. I just don't think the quality of the guitar is reflected by the price, it's a positive reversal to the situation you might find with axes costing tens of thousands...

It will probably take a practised hand to be able to judge the REAL quality of it though. But it sounds nice, keeps it tune nicely (well, it does now), has nice long sustain and it keeps me busy while I learn. Hundreds! ?

Bob-Dubery

Tonedef wrote: My strat is a cash crusaders special, and its virtually identical to the cheap arias and whatnot you see hanging at muso shops. From the shape, neck, fretboard, saddles, tuners, bridge, knobs, everything is 100% identical. The only thing different I could spot is that mine has a built in tuner on the top arch. I think the basic strat knockoff design has been perfected by the asian cloners, for all we know they all come from the same sweatshop too.

With no disrespect intended....

1) You are clearly good with your hands and willing to do the sort of set up jobs that many people would have to pay money for - assuming they could figure out that the problem was with them and not with the guitar

2) As per a recent post of yours you are still at a level of expertise at which you find changing from chord to chord difficult. Now I do not want to belittle you for that and we've all been there (some of us for longer than others) BUT there could be problems with your guitar that you have not detected yet because you're not doing things fast enough for them to become a problem.

Look... I hope you're right and that you have rendered your guitar playable. But I wonder how much it cost you, and I wonder how much all that work (fret dressing IIRC) would have cost somebody like me who doesn't have the time, tools or skill to do it. Add that to the cost of the guitar and would it have been cheaper to get something else?

Malkav

...mario... wrote: If you don't mind a guitar made of basswood

Ooh...Let's not go there >☹

You get good basswood and you get cheap shit just like with all other woods, personally I would take basswood over mahogany, ash, alder etc anyday. There seems to be this weird snobbery about basswood in the guitar world, it's silly this is just another personal preference thing. Some people like it, some don't but it's not a shit wood by any standard. 8)