Gearhead
Chad Adam Browne wrote:
A valve amp unfortunately will never have the ability to go from Meshuggah heavy to Eric Johnson clean they lack the versatility in that respect
Wrong. I can go to either end of the scale from dirty to clean and from London to Memphis through my rig and it's all valve except for the effects.
DonovanB
The Orange Dual Terror does that.
Then there's that Mesa valve amp that kind of models as well...
Warren
MIKA the better one wrote:
And finally if you can name me a few of these awsome toned people with digi setups anywhere but especially here in SA I would appreciate it. I generally find 99. 99999999% of SA rock/ alternative/ metal/ contempory music SHITE...... with minor exceptions, sad but true, and trust me dude, I have seen ALOT... I have never heard Alan or anyone rip ot up on a digi setup so I cant account for that.......
Just curious, which 0.0000000001% of bands actually make these allegedly stratospheric standards of yours Mika?
singemonkey
Chad, one thing I really agree with you on is the utility of modeling for 8 strings. Not really my forte, I'm sure you realise, but I saw a video by burgerman666 (you all know the one I presume) - at least, I recall it being him - who had a custom ESP 8 string Tele, if I'm remembering right. What I do remember clearly is the amazing definition on those deep dark strings. Something he attributed to using a modeler since he said it sounded like pure mud through his amp.
I think that the analogue nature of tube amps will mean that people will probably tend to fail those tests when listening to recordings. But I think, in the same room with the amps, tone-hounds will still tell a tube amp. I mean, we can't hear the gaps between bits and bytes consciously, but I suspect the approximation factor of digital will always leave the very best tone to real amps, and wide format tape machines, and acoustic pianos, etc..
chris77
I accept that Tube amps are superior sounding and has better feel than modelers.
I accept that if you're a pro muso you need the best gear you can afford, and this will include a decent Tube amp.
I can even see that if you know what you're listening for and have a wide enough frame of reference that you will be able to hear/feel the different little nuances that make for a great amp stand out from it's peers.
But....
I don't care. I will never again look beyond modeling amps and software. I am not a gigging muso and I play for myself 99'9% of the time. What I loose in tone and feel (which is a totally subjective concept anyway), is made up for in being able to switch between amps and effects with the turn of a knob. And I love it.
Will I love to play a Marshall stack in front of a screaming crowd? Hell yeah.
Even more so to play some killer blues to an endearing audience through an old vintage Fender Bassman in a smokey little club. Will it ever happen? Not bloody likely hey. But with my G-dec i can jam on a different amp, with any effects I would want and along any band I wish, with the turn of a knob and the click of a mouse.
MIKA-the-better-one
Warren wrote:
MIKA the better one wrote:
And finally if you can name me a few of these awsome toned people with digi setups anywhere but especially here in SA I would appreciate it. I generally find 99. 99999999% of SA rock/ alternative/ metal/ contempory music SHITE...... with minor exceptions, sad but true, and trust me dude, I have seen ALOT... I have never heard Alan or anyone rip ot up on a digi setup so I cant account for that.......
Just curious, which 0.0000000001% of bands actually make these allegedly stratospheric standards of yours Mika?
I dont know, there are not many that have impressed me..... there was a cool band called Korean Rock Squad who did some stoner rock quite well.... and a few odd things here and there... do you want a list of the 0.0000000001% ?
Warren
MIKA the better one wrote:
I dont know, there are not many that have impressed me..... there was a cool band called Korean Rock Squad who did some stoner rock quite well.... and a few odd things here and there... do you want a list of the 0.0000000001% ?
Was the rhetoric a bit lost on you? ?
"Didn't impress me" is not quite the same as calling them all (because it's basically all) "Shite".
It's also not the first time you've mentioned how unimpressive almost every other band is (and there are so many, apparently) so I'm just wondering what exactly what sort of band does impress you...or what sort of tone, for that matter. Because listening to some of the guys you've mentioned (like Band of Horses or Mars Volta - who coincidentally I'd never heard of ?) it doesn't strike me their guitar tone is even really a prominent feature in those bands, as opposed to say a blues or rock band.
Like, when people say Joe Bonamassa's tone, or John Mayer's tone, or Dave Gilmour or Gary Moore or or or...I can get what they're on about. You're probably not going to emulate Mayer, with his Dumble, Fender and Two Rock amps which cost eleventy billion $$$s, on your Pod XT. But I don't see why you couldn't play Band of Horses on a Pod XT, quite happily ?
MIKA-the-better-one
I use those bands as an example because I felt their guitar tones differed quite a bit..... But if there any bands we both know that you would bring up I would be happy to discuss it.
In short, upon many shows in SA I found there to be a lacking of good guitar tones, based on the attitude of "oh its esier to bring my POD" or my 10watt.
Where in USA I had "I have to bring my van because I use a Super Reverb in this songs and a vox in this song because it makes me play better and the song sound better"
Band wise with actual musicality, I think the African jazz/ rock stuff in SA is probably the best thing going for it, its amazing, because I think they play what comes naturally.
Now Take a few Grunge bands or rock ones from SA and what you get is guys trying to sound like their fave overseas band, to a scary degree... I also think because its such a small market there is not enough room for the sort of creativity one would crave for the music in this country...... there is a small market thus people want to hear the hits, instead of someones unique offering.
And then back to tube amps, Band of horses.... thanks you for listening to them, but they rely on vox ac 15s, and marshal blues breakers, there sound live is huge and amazing thanks to there tube power..... really it makes a differance.....
Warren
MIKA the better one wrote:
I use those bands as an example because I felt their guitar tones differed quite a bit..... But if there any bands we both know that you would bring up I would be happy to discuss it.
In short, upon many shows in SA I found there to be a lacking of good guitar tones, based on the attitude of "oh its esier to bring my POD" or my 10watt.
Where in USA I had "I have to bring my van because I use a Super Reverb in this songs and a vox in this song because it makes me play better and the song sound better"
Band wise with actual musicality, I think the African jazz/ rock stuff in SA is probably the best thing going for it, its amazing, because I think they play what comes naturally.
Now Take a few Grunge bands or rock ones from SA and what you get is guys trying to sound like their fave overseas band, to a scary degree... I also think because its such a small market there is not enough room for the sort of creativity one would crave for the music in this country...... there is a small market thus people want to hear the hits, instead of someones unique offering.
.
I think it's easier to build a collection of sexy tube amps in the USA than here in SA, considering what the things cost. I think the use of modelers on stage here in SA is at least partially cost-driven (I know it is for me).
Your second paragraph makes some interesting points, though I don't agree entirely:
We have an eclectic collection of people here, and some of us grow up listening to mainstream US/UK rock (although even when I was younger we listened to a lot of local bands too), so it's only natural that people develop leanings towards those styles of music when they go on to create their own stuff. I don't think there's inherently anything wrong with an SA grunge or rock band...after all music is supposed to transcend boundaries: look at John McLaughlin or the Beatles with their Indian musical influences, or Albert Lee who is a "country" legend but was born in the UK?
Afro-jazz is great though, I wish I knew more about playing in that sort of style.
Sean
MIKA the better one wrote:
I dont know, there are not many that have impressed me..... there was a cool band called Korean Rock Squad who did some stoner rock quite well.... and a few odd things here and there... do you want a list of the 0.0000000001% ?
Locally? (based on your statistic, not to be confused with me agreeing with you) probably comes to a tenth of a guitarist ?
singemonkey
Yeah. It's unfair to assume that South Africans should sound South African. Many of us, like most of the "Western world," grew up on American music. It's what we love best. Same as the Beatles and the Rolling Stones. It's great that there was also a Pentangle and a Fairport Convention (who Bob will tell you started off trying to be the Byrds), but some people just loved American rock and blues. So why should they make something they love less?
SA grunge is mostly crap because it's crap. Not because it's grunge (although there's a strong correlation that holds for American as well as SA bands).
As for the modeling debate. I post again a video that shows how far it's come. This is a long way from when the POD was brand spanky new:
JohnnyMcFly
From the perspective of a guy who codes virtual amps, I may have a different insight into this conversation. I have not read every post so, if this has already been mentioned sorry...
Cheap imitations are cheap imitations, period...
If you want a Marshall sound, there is only one place to get it, buy a Marshall. Same goes for Fender, Mesa, and everything else. Absolutely no one, is going to tell me that an imitation amp sim is the same as the real tube amp, they are not. Here's a good reason why, Have you ever set the sample rate on your computer, 44,100, 48k, 96k? Is there a setting for infinit sample rate? There is no such thing..In order for a cheap imitation to function like the real thing, it needs to have this. Right now, this is an impossibility, so, there is no way that an amp sim will be doing the same thing as the real world counter parts.
Having said that, I am actively involved in coding and designing virtual guitar amps, effects, and cabinets. I whole heartedly believe there is a place for them, I believe in the technology, but I wish companies would stop with the cheap imitations like the one pictured in the video above.
I do not make simulators, I make virtual amps, there is a difference. What we make are original creations that work more with the short comings of sample rates and other factors, as opposed to trying to sell snake oil and make people believe that there is a little Marshall living inside the computer. In the video above both may sound really similar, but there is big differences. Anyone with a trained ear, not just a trained ear in terms of a mixing engineer, but someone who knows what to listen for would pick them out instantly. Listen closely to the low end breakup, listen to the "smooth brittleness" of the real amp, then compare that to the imitation. Thats only a couple differences I heard. Listen to the mids that should not be there, particularly around 900 hz region.
The biggest difference you will get out of a real world comparison is the feel, amp simulators are dead feeling to me, plastic. The only simulator that has a little feel is Guitar Rig, Nothing else feels right, of course thats just my opinion. If it works for you, then great, they just don't work for me.
In our developments, I would rather spend more time researching dynamics and feel, than worry about whether it could trick someone into thinking its the real deal.
Just my 2 cents...
Warren
JohnnyMcFly wrote:
From the perspective of a guy who codes virtual amps, I may have a different insight into this conversation. I have not read every post so, if this has already been mentioned sorry...
Cheap imitations are cheap imitations, period...
If you want a Marshall sound, there is only one place to get it, buy a Marshall. Same goes for Fender, Mesa, and everything else. Absolutely no one, is going to tell me that an imitation amp sim is the same as the real tube amp, they are not. Here's a good reason why, Have you ever set the sample rate on your computer, 44,100, 48k, 96k? Is there a setting for infinit sample rate? There is no such thing..In order for a cheap imitation to function like the real thing, it needs to have this. Right now, this is an impossibility, so, there is no way that an amp sim will be doing the same thing as the real world counter parts.
Having said that, I am actively involved in coding and designing virtual guitar amps, effects, and cabinets. I whole heartedly believe there is a place for them, I believe in the technology, but I wish companies would stop with the cheap imitations like the one pictured in the video above.
I do not make simulators, I make virtual amps, there is a difference. What we make are original creations that work more with the short comings of sample rates and other factors, as opposed to trying to sell snake oil and make people believe that there is a little Marshall living inside the computer. In the video above both may sound really similar, but there is big differences. Anyone with a trained ear, not just a trained ear in terms of a mixing engineer, but someone who knows what to listen for would pick them out instantly. Listen closely to the low end breakup, listen to the "smooth brittleness" of the real amp, then compare that to the imitation. Thats only a couple differences I heard. Listen to the mids that should not be there, particularly around 900 hz region.
The biggest difference you will get out of a real world comparison is the feel, amp simulators are dead feeling to me, plastic. The only simulator that has a little feel is Guitar Rig, Nothing else feels right, of course thats just my opinion. If it works for you, then great, they just don't work for me.
In our developments, I would rather spend more time researching dynamics and feel, than worry about whether it could trick someone into thinking its the real deal.
Just my 2 cents...
Interesting perspective!
But then, take Fender for example: they actually do market their own series of models for Amplitube, right down to the "look 'n' feel" of the knobs and the cabinets etc.
I have a hunch that they do this to hook people into the sound of their gear, with the idea that possibly a player will someday then want to upgrade to a real Twin or Bassman or whatever. But the models are branded "Fender", and they're supposed to "sound like the real thing".
ruvann
The tube amp "warm" thing is getting little overrated i think.
People are running out of words to describe "tube amp" sound.
But I really do think that the Axe-FX can fool ANYONE.
I've told a couple of people to try and hear the difference in an A/B comparison between a real recorded valve amp and the Axe-FX direct.
Nobody was able to tell the difference yet. They might guess correctly but it's still a guess nonetheless.
Best of all is that it doesn't FEEL like a modeler.
The 'virtual' poweramp of the Axe-FX has the same feel of dynamics as a real valve amp.
I've got a Peavey 6505 valve head at home, and an Axe-FX Ultra.
I can get a WAY better tone from the Axe-FX that still feels the same as the Peavey. It's not stiff like other modelers, the tone actually lies within your fingers again.
And saying that 'pros' ONLY use valve is VERY wrong.
Listen to James Labries' new album where Marco Sfogli used his Axe-FX to the guitars.
Marco Sfogli's solo album.
Mushuggah, Nevermore, Opeth, Rusty Cooley, etc.
Not ALL of the guys use the Axe-FX pre- and poweramp sims but quite a few of them do and some have even recorded albums with it.
So yeah, if people are judging on what the "pros" use, valve has definitely met its match!
swnt
I love amp/effects modelling for one reason, you can test out sounds that you would spend years sourcing and saving up for otherwise... but from playing on boss ME, Vox ME, Line 6, etc as well as Guitar rig and the such... there really is no better alternative to having a real AC30, Diezel or similar amp with real stomp boxes in front of you. UNfortunately the cost of having the equipment that comes with modelling programs/ME pedals/AMPs in their original form is just way too high.
Muse (Matthew Bellamy) and U2(Edge) both use a huge amount of effects. Both run AC30s after trying many ways of producing sounds. Mathew bellamy even has the Research Receptor that Alan mentioned. Yet he still plays through 3 valve amps...
So my opinion,
- use modelling if you cannot afford the real stuff. (It is really a good cost-to-benefit)
- use modelling to experiment, find great new ways of making great music.
- buy the real thing of what you find works in these modelling programs/ME
- please don't run amp modelling into another amp preamp
- don't buy boss ME, they're rubbish ?
guidothepimmp
these debates of valve vs ss vs modellers, as interesting as they are will always be flawed and scewed as each camp will lobby strongly toward their preference . Does each technology have a place ine guitar world? yes definitely..
has digitalcmodelling come a long way.. yes definitely
can ss amps sound good? yes definitely
now to a lehman what does it matter if he/she has x amp and is super chuffed with it. doesnt necessarily make it better or worse than some other dudes kit.
what i find to be a great amp the next guy may think is crap.
so where people have modelling amps and theyre happy that theyre fairly close to a tube amp.. cool man. sure the dynamics may never be there but to the average joe does this matter? probably not.
i think its unfair to rubbish everyone elses tone.. not everyone has the same means and im yet to meet anyone who just plugs in and jams. inevitably they always tweak to better the sound.
so lets be considerate and respect other guitarist attempts at what they feel is good and acceptable tone. even if it sounds like ass.
better to help a brother out than ridicule him..
were not all bonamassa or satch
sorry bout the vent..
my 2 cents worth
Renesongs
The question I asked myself when I decided to go back on stage 5 years ago is what is going to be the easiest thing carry, set up, and maintain. Sure nothing can really give the same feel as a valves top through a 4 x 12 cab. While you playing the first set with lame arms from carrying your gear across 2 parking lots and setting up on a stage the size of a coffee table you hear your sound breaking up is it valve that has worked it's way loose on it's many journeys or is it the kak imitation SM 57 the venues sound guy has dangled in front of your stack or maybe its just dirt in the decrepit mixing desk the venue supplied - oh great the sound guy has just wandered out to buy some cigarettes.
My point is that live sound is nowhere near as precise as studio sound so a modeller that is rugged ( can survive falling off the roof of your car) and sounds vaguely similar to my favourite tube amp is going to have to do until I can afford roadies, guitar and amp techs and a private sound engineer
BMU
JohnnyMcFly is probably right, maybe it doesn't sound exactly like the real thing. And that's probably important to a lot of guys, but I don't give a damn. I'm after cool, not real. Different markets, that's all. ('Real' was an accident, a happy coincidence of the technology limitations of the time, after all.)
Renesongs makes a good point. "Close enough for all practical purposes". Interesting to me, coming as it does from a blues guy at the opposite end of the electric guitar spectrum as myself.
[deleted]
Renesongs wrote:
a modeller that is rugged ( can survive falling off the roof of your car)
? Hectic. Did that actually happen? I'm happy to report that Squonk's attempt to ski down some stairs with my effects unit also resulted in no damage... Well, not for the pedal, anyway. Draw your own conclusions about Squonk.
Renesongs
Hectic. Did that actually happen?
A couple of times with the GT-6 The GT- has only been dropped on a tiled floor from about table height 800mm, chipped the damn tiles >☹
