Tube amp vs Modeler

Isis · 2011-01-29T20:47:49+00:00

Ok, so I'm probably going to open a can of worms with this topic. We always hear how tube amps "feel" better bla bla bla. Is this something that modelers c...

Tube amp vs Modeler

BMU

Alan Ratcliffe wrote: I like and use both. (..and more wise stuff like that)

Well said sir. That post should be framed. Every single paragraph is a shining beacon of clear reasoning.

Personally I come down heavily on the modeler side for reasons Alan mentions, but truly there is nothing to argue against in that post, from either side.

MIKA-the-better-one

sssss s s s s s suck u u uuuuuu uuu p ?

singemonkey

I think that modelers make fantastic sense for recording. The quality is less of an issue, because your mic'd sound from your amp is being digitised anyway - losing some of the richness of information. With modeling software, it seems to me that you lose nothing. So it balances out because the software's digital to start with.

But then there are all kinds of advantages. Easier to set up, more options, and - most of all - the ability to "re-amp" your dry guitar signal later, with better modeling software, is a huge plus.

Gearhead

I guess the discussion on 'feel' is more about how well your playing develops than it is about how good a performance by a seasoned player can sound through either setup. I would recommend playing a real tube amp to anyone for three reasons:
1. Your playing adapts to your rig and its sensitivity, and everyone agrees that the dynamics of tubes is not modeled accurately yet;
2. It is easier to get great sounds (given your cab and your axe) out of a well designed tube amp than it is to get great sounds out of a modeler. Presets only help so much since they are usually made for someone else's setup;
3. Eventually everyone winds up with at least a tube amp and sometimes people also use modeling. Buy once is cheaper than the buy-sell-buy-sell cycle lotsa guys seem to be caught in.
I don't buy the recording argument since it is only valid if you do want to record for money, and if you do you should spend some to make some. I'm saying a real Bassman through a real 4x10 with real Jensens recorded with a real SM57 just off-center will sound at least as good as a model of the same setup? If you want to reamp you can always tap a clean signal somewhere and record both?

Renesongs

I don't think it is such a can of worms. Most people will go for real valve than simulation. In fact in the professional world it seems to be a no no to use prefabricated multifx. I have heard legends about some pro acts hiding uncool simulators behind their stacks - I don't know if that is true or not.

I prefer multifx with amp modelling like the Boss GT series because I can spend weeks tweaking the exact sound I want and simply press save and take it with me and set up on stage. I use a Roland solid state amp with a very clean sound so there is no tweaking from that side. If my amp dies or the back line is already on stage all I do is kill the amp sim on the pedal and I have still got my wha delay overdrive expression etc exactly where I want it.

I used Guitar Rig in live situations for about a year. Although it produces a great sound it is a bit of a nightmare working with a laptop on stage with spotlights blinding you and the potential knocking it off the music stand. I ended up putting the laptop closed and on the floor but had to open it every time I needed to check my tuning. Guitar Rig Kontrol pedal 's stomp switches are placed far to close together to be useful in a live environment.

ActionArnie

Not sure how many of y'all know who Lincoln Brewster is, but he used to use Pod X3 Live in his live rig direct to the house PA. Uses axe-fx now I've heard:

Skip to about 3m30 to see him talk about the X3.

Keira-WitherKay

Alan Ratcliffe wrote:
A big problem most of the modellers have IMO is they cram too much into the amp - too many FX/models. Simpler works better for most players at the best of times and for live playing the simplicity coupled with easy adjustment like a real amp will always win out. I'd love to see a bigger modelling amp where they use all the processing power for higher res modelling and leave the FX for conventional pedals. Then they should use the money saved to pay for a simple valve input circuit - which is IMO the best place to have a valve if you are going to incorporate one.

I

i think sansamp are now doing the simple modelling thing with the "character series" each box just does one amp.........

=

just a few vids they do em all, marshall/orange /vox/fender/mesa ect ect

great idea and they quite CHEAP in comparison if the online prices are anything to go by ........

sansamp's answer to the future....... i like the blonde but i've always had a weakness for blondes ?

AlanRatcliffe

Renesongs wrote: it is a bit of a nightmare working with a laptop on stage with spotlights blinding you and the potential knocking it off the music stand.

+1000. As you know I worked with a laptop for a couple of years. On the one hand it's nice and portable and way more flexible and powerful than any conventional system. Unfortunately laptops are just too delicate for regular gigging, they are made for portability rather than durability..

I haven't given up on the idea of Guitar Rig completely though. After looking into the Muse Research Receptor (a hardware plug in host), I decided I'm going to build a road-ready rack computer with more than enough processing power to handle anything I might throw at it. Then I can take my guitar-MIDI converter along in the same rack and host the synths in the same PC.

Keira WitherKay wrote: i think sansamp are now doing the simple modelling thing with the "character series" each box just does one amp.........

True, but I want to see that idea expanded to an amp. Anyway, modelling a few different amps is fine - you only use one at a time.

Malkav

This always turns into such a painful argument, and even though 99% of them would test wrong in a blind hearing test the valve snobs will constantly insist it's the only way to go.

Personally I think you can get lots of tones digitally that valves can't get, and some of them sound f***ing rad ? Just another side to the argument though, I've gotten some horrificly buzz saw like distorted tones - some almost squarewave in sound. Did I go "Ah! that is not true valve amp tone, it sounds like a guitar synth being overdriven" no, I went "F*** yeah, if I double that with this model to add some clarity and definition in the fundamental I'll have something completely unheard of", then I proceeded to give myself a ^5 ?

Bottom line is modellers are almost there, they'll probably have it right within the next decade. Even when they are getting it completely right and everyone is failing on the blind tests there will still be some stuck up old sod defending valve amps, cause people are stupid and they don't like change.

I look forward to the day I can rock up to a gig with a floorboard or a rack mount unit that literally just does it all, in the end it's what you do with it.

I'm going to be going full modelling soon, saving up for a stereo P.A amp and stuff. Turns out most valve amps, with the exception being Mesa so far, can't handle 8-string guitars - this has more to do with cabinet design than anything else but I still find it hilarious, you will never see a Fender or Marshall shit themselves harder than when they're trying to handle that low E ?

vic

@Chad...I'm one of those old sods who prefer valve over solid state etc. I have little experience with modellers...only a bit with the new Vox VT100 (2*12) which I'm sure you know. I got it only for recording and of course for its many onboard Fx..I'm not into pedals and am hoping that this amp will eliminate to use of such in live situations. This amp mimics about 20 different amp models and has all the common Fx onboard...oh,it takes time to learn how to use it properly.
It's a very good sounding amp I tell you..BUT there's that something missing when compared to my vintage AC30.
Of course nowadays you get many of these modellers and software,.I would n't mind getting more exposure to these.

Gearhead

Chad Adam Browne wrote: This always turns into such a painful argument, and even though 99% of them would test wrong in a blind hearing test the valve snobs will constantly insist it's the only way to go

Any discussion will turn into an argument if people don't listen. Us valvists were saying it's more about the feel than about the sound, but you do not address that. Pity. Any argument will turn into a painful argument if you start calling people names. I don't think I am a snob if prices for the more modern modeling rival those of tube amps.

MIKA-the-better-one

@ Chad, Most guitarists cant handle 6 strings so 8 is super ambitious. And also pretty much catered to ... metal. Another thing I have noticed Metal doesn ot require nice tone most of the time.... set aside bands like Baroness, and mastadon, who are big endorsers of yes .....Tube amps...... I just done think tube amps are meant to handle such things as 8 strings....... if you know what i mean

I personally hate the sight of someone walking in with a little POD exclaiming "plug me into the PA"
I usually... sorry... always experience horrible tone....... No matter what sort of vintage amp was programmed to come out it usually sounds like crap, and I have experienced this many a time, so i dont think its a isolated incident of not knowing how to use gear.

Again I rest my case on the fact that almost all pro musicians use valve amps. Be it, Band of Horses using Vox ac 30's, and marshall bluesbreakers, Or the Mars Volta with there Orange rocker 50's, or the countless bands relying on that clean fender sound.

I put it down to guys who can distinguish good tone.... you can hear the difference between a real Fender vibrolux/ twin/ bassman, and a crappy imitation of it. Aside from that as mentioned valve amps react to suit the player, and his tone and preferance.

I dont put it past people to use solid state, thats fine, and some may even surprise me with semi decent sounds, but as I have experienced Valve tone is superior and I dont see someone being able to replicate that.

For all the advancements in digital technology, there have been just as many in pure point to point boutique tube amps......
Its just funny how most of the guitarists end up with a tube amp after starting with a modelling amps... and never look back

Malkav

vic wrote: @Chad...I'm one of those old sods who prefer valve over solid state etc. I have little experience with modellers...only a bit with the new Vox VT100 (2*12) which I'm sure you know. I got it only for recording and of course for its many onboard Fx..I'm not into pedals and am hoping that this amp will eliminate to use of such in live situations. This amp mimics about 20 different amp models and has all the common Fx onboard...oh,it takes time to learn how to use it properly.
It's a very good sounding amp I tell you..BUT there's that something missing when compared to my vintage AC30.
Of course nowadays you get many of these modellers and software,.I would n't mind getting more exposure to these.

Gearhead wrote:
Chad Adam Browne wrote: This always turns into such a painful argument, and even though 99% of them would test wrong in a blind hearing test the valve snobs will constantly insist it's the only way to go
Any discussion will turn into an argument if people don't listen. Us valvists were saying it's more about the feel than about the sound, but you do not address that. Pity. Any argument will turn into a painful argument if you start calling people names. I don't think I am a snob if prices for the more modern modeling rival those of tube amps.

I'm not disagreeing with the feel thing, I'm saying that in 10 years they'll probably have that down too. Then people will still complain, and tell us all how awful it sounds and how it can never match up etc...

MIKA the better one wrote: @ Chad, Most guitarists cant handle 6 strings so 8 is super ambitious. And also pretty much catered to ... metal. Another thing I have noticed Metal doesn ot require nice tone most of the time.... set aside bands like Baroness, and mastadon, who are big endorsers of yes .....Tube amps...... I just done think tube amps are meant to handle such things as 8 strings....... if you know what i mean

It has more strings therefore the ONLY style of music it can play is metal? hmmmkay, the first 7 strings were ordered by jazz players, notably George Van Eps. Of course anyone who plays an ERG (Extended Range Guitar) must be a metal player. First thing I did when I got my 8 string was get excited about all the stuff I could do using touch technique and then all the cool accompaniment I could use for jazz (walking bass and all) then sometime after I just got real excited about giant extended chord voicings, I believe it was after all this miraculous revelation that suddenly it dawned on me, hey I can also play some F***ing heavy metal. WIN!

I'm just gonna put aside the comment about "nice" tone in metal cause that's just ignorant.

MIKA the better one wrote: I personally hate the sight of someone walking in with a little POD exclaiming "plug me into the PA"
I usually... sorry... always experience horrible tone....... No matter what sort of vintage amp was programmed to come out it usually sounds like crap, and I have experienced this many a time, so i dont think its a isolated incident of not knowing how to use gear.

Seriously dude, stop going to see shitty bands. All over the net their are tons of examples of people recording with PODs and stuff that sound absolutely killer. I know tons of S.A guitarists who can make multi-fx pedals do godlike things, Alan himself and Gareth (vintage Vibes) spring to mind.

MIKA the better one wrote: Again I rest my case on the fact that almost all pro musicians use valve amps. Be it, Band of Horses using Vox ac 30's, and marshall bluesbreakers, Or the Mars Volta with there Orange rocker 50's, or the countless bands relying on that clean fender sound.

Hmmmkay well I know of a couple of pro musicians who don't use valve amps, and funny enough the bands you mention musically and tonally don't really do much for me. Not saying they're bad, just not my thing so I really can't empathise with that.

MIKA the better one wrote: I put it down to guys who can distinguish good tone.... you can hear the difference between a real Fender vibrolux/ twin/ bassman, and a crappy imitation of it. Aside from that as mentioned valve amps react to suit the player, and his tone and preferance.

I dont put it past people to use solid state, thats fine, and some may even surprise me with semi decent sounds, but as I have experienced Valve tone is superior and I dont see someone being able to replicate that.

For all the advancements in digital technology, there have been just as many in pure point to point boutique tube amps......
Its just funny how most of the guitarists end up with a tube amp after starting with a modelling amps... and never look back

it comes down to ones ability to hear and tweak with modellers, realistically people who can distinguish good tone as you call them would probably fail in a blind test. Heck you'd probably fail in a blind test.

Valve tone is only superior for now, modelling will get there. It's already frighteningly close in the upper echelon products like the Axe-Fx. Valve tone isn't superior, merely different, as I've said you can make some crazy digital sounds that are amazing if that's what they're intended to be - digital heresy at it's finest ?

I'll probably end up on valve amps myself one day, or maybe by then digital will perfect. For now though I like modelling, cause I like tons of different types of music and I want to be able to play them with tones that fit the genre. A valve amp unfortunately will never have the ability to go from Meshuggah heavy to Eric Johnson clean they lack the versatility in that respect which is why I steer clear of them, it's simply impossible to justify the kind of money I'd have to spend just to get the enjoyment out of it that I get now.

ActionArnie

For those in the know, how well do the likes of Amplitude and Guitar Rig take to pedals?

MIKA-the-better-one

I may faila blind test, but I wont fail a test between my amp sound and a digital modeller trying to give me that sound, it will fall apart the second I hit a fuzz pedal on it, because most fuzz needs that tube amp behind it.

Tube amps vs digital true no one is better for certain players, but to say the one can do the job of the other is not quite accurate and borderline ignorant.

There are a few guys who use digi on stage, I am not a fan though, take metal bands such as Isis, converge, Baroness, all of them and they have super heavy tone that needs tube sound.... digital does not cut it, and i dont thinlk will ever master the exact mojo a valve amp pushes out.

8 strings 7 strings fair enough jazz guys use them.... but a Fender or Vox is not designed for that, its designed for 6 strings. you have to admit that most uses of additional strings hints at a heavier player hence the metal relation.... In regard to tone, I often find the metal player focusing more on toneless chugging than an actual attempt to get a real tear your ear off mean sound..... again a generalisation I apologise....l but its true

And finally if you can name me a few of these awsome toned people with digi setups anywhere but especially here in SA I would appreciate it. I generally find 99. 99999999% of SA rock/ alternative/ metal/ contempory music SHITE...... with minor exceptions, sad but true, and trust me dude, I have seen ALOT... I have never heard Alan or anyone rip ot up on a digi setup so I cant account for that.......

Gearhead

Chad Adam Browne wrote: A valve amp unfortunately will never have the ability to go from Meshuggah heavy to Eric Johnson clean they lack the versatility in that respect

Wrong. I can go to either end of the scale from dirty to clean and from London to Memphis through my rig and it's all valve except for the effects.

DonovanB

The Orange Dual Terror does that.

Then there's that Mesa valve amp that kind of models as well...

Warren

MIKA the better one wrote:
And finally if you can name me a few of these awsome toned people with digi setups anywhere but especially here in SA I would appreciate it. I generally find 99. 99999999% of SA rock/ alternative/ metal/ contempory music SHITE...... with minor exceptions, sad but true, and trust me dude, I have seen ALOT... I have never heard Alan or anyone rip ot up on a digi setup so I cant account for that.......

Just curious, which 0.0000000001% of bands actually make these allegedly stratospheric standards of yours Mika?

singemonkey

Chad, one thing I really agree with you on is the utility of modeling for 8 strings. Not really my forte, I'm sure you realise, but I saw a video by burgerman666 (you all know the one I presume) - at least, I recall it being him - who had a custom ESP 8 string Tele, if I'm remembering right. What I do remember clearly is the amazing definition on those deep dark strings. Something he attributed to using a modeler since he said it sounded like pure mud through his amp.

I think that the analogue nature of tube amps will mean that people will probably tend to fail those tests when listening to recordings. But I think, in the same room with the amps, tone-hounds will still tell a tube amp. I mean, we can't hear the gaps between bits and bytes consciously, but I suspect the approximation factor of digital will always leave the very best tone to real amps, and wide format tape machines, and acoustic pianos, etc..

chris77

I accept that Tube amps are superior sounding and has better feel than modelers.
I accept that if you're a pro muso you need the best gear you can afford, and this will include a decent Tube amp.
I can even see that if you know what you're listening for and have a wide enough frame of reference that you will be able to hear/feel the different little nuances that make for a great amp stand out from it's peers.

But....

I don't care. I will never again look beyond modeling amps and software. I am not a gigging muso and I play for myself 99'9% of the time. What I loose in tone and feel (which is a totally subjective concept anyway), is made up for in being able to switch between amps and effects with the turn of a knob. And I love it.

Will I love to play a Marshall stack in front of a screaming crowd? Hell yeah.
Even more so to play some killer blues to an endearing audience through an old vintage Fender Bassman in a smokey little club. Will it ever happen? Not bloody likely hey. But with my G-dec i can jam on a different amp, with any effects I would want and along any band I wish, with the turn of a knob and the click of a mouse.