Deception of Guitar Companies?

Charlie4

I'm just curious to know to what extent are guitar companies allowed to lie about specs etc?

An example would be an Epiphone Les Paul Gothic/Nightfall ($499) to have an ebony fretboard, according to the spec sheet (Musicians Friend).
This just sounds too good to be true.
$500 for a guitar with ebony? Or is it merely "firewood quality" ebony?

If I'm not mistaking you cannot claim your product to be something if it isn't (Such as the whole Power band controversy).
Stained rosewood is NOT ebony!

Can someone please give some insight to this matter.

Bob-Dubery

URL?

I ask because it may be a dealer making the claim and not Epiphone themselves

AlanRatcliffe

Don't be so quick to assume it is not ebony. It probably is if that is what is claimed. It just might not be the same species of ebony that has been preferred for lutherie in the past (Gaboon Ebony). There are other species of ebony (such as Makassar ebony) which are not black and some woods that are black are commonly called ebony by wood merchants (e.g. African Blackwood, which was sometimes called African Ebony until recently).

Charlie4

X-rated Bob wrote: URL?

I ask because it may be a dealer making the claim and not Epiphone themselves

Here's the link Bob:

Epiphone Les Paul Nightfall
http://guitars.musiciansfriend.com/product/Epiphone-Les-Paul-Nightfall-Electric-Guitar?sku=423560
&
http://www.epiphone.com/default.asp?ProductID=336&CollectionID=19

It seems musicians friend is the guilty party. >☹
(This is merely an example).

The same applies for true-bypass, hardwired bypass etc. (maxon, Radial Tonebone etc.)
http://stinkfoot.se/archives/524

Alan Ratcliffe wrote: Don't be so quick to assume it is not ebony. It probably is if that is what is claimed. It just might not be the same species of ebony that has been preferred for lutherie in the past (Gaboon Ebony). There are other species of ebony (such as Makassar ebony) which are not black and some woods that are black are commonly called ebony by wood merchants (e.g. African Blackwood, which was sometimes called African Ebony until recently).

Alan, I take what you're saying is that they can name a less superior tone wood, such as Nato, Mahogany?
Also different strains of Ebony for differently priced guitars?

I'm just trying to figure this out because when I compare specs bewteen guitar A and B I don't want to fork out extra when I don't get what I pay for.

AlanRatcliffe

Also possible that it's a special run with ebony for MF - that's not unusual for Gibson and MF/GC, they've done it before.

It could also be that MF still have stock from a different batch that no longer shows on the Epi web site. Manufacturers do change the specs and photos on their site as soon as the model is changed (usually around the time of Winter NAMM or Frankfurt - i.e. now). When I bought my Dean Sarasota, the Dean web site showed the Sarasota as having cat claw soundholes, but when I got it (directly from Dean too), it had the older, F-shaped holes (which I preferred anyway).

Either way, it may well be that the models MF have in stock do have ebony boards. The logical thing to do would be to email them and ask.

Tonedef

I&J takes Hake, colours it it with yellow flavouring and smears it of on an unsuspecting public as Haddock. If you complain, they send you vouchers. See where I'm goin' wit dis...? ^_^

Riaan-Combrink

The simple answer is - no, one cannot lie about specs or tonewood, etc at all. That would be prohibited not only by the consumer protection legislation of most countries, but also provide grounds to claim breach of contract (and resile from sale/purchase) under ordinary contract law principles. BUT, as indicated by Alan, whether a claim is indeed false or misleading is always a FACTUAL question, not a LEGAL one. Is it ebony? Law has nothing to do with that - zoology [or perhaps botany :-[, whatever dictates that argument. If a generic term 'ebony' is used, from a strictly legal perspective I believe the onus is on the purchaser to clarify whether it is the sub-specie(?) or variant that is a better tonewood than another. This is based on the basic principle 'buyer beware' (caveat emptor). The only exception would be where one could perhaps prove a deliberate bad faith attempt to falsely induce the sale or attract an inflated or unjustified price due to the misrepresentation. Then you're back to breach of contract (didn't receive what you trusted you were purchasing) and you may be able to cancel purchase and claim restitution.

With the differences in adverts, or post-purchase changes, one will find that the actual terms of advertising or sale will often contain exactly those kinds of disclaimers (eg. 'actual colour may differ', etc). But that will only protect the seller if the change is not a deal-breaker type of feature; i.e something you - and any other reasonable purchaser with the same knowledge and experience in your position (fictional 'innocent bystander') - would not have concluded the deal at all if you knew beforehand that it would contain such a feature or variation; eg it contains a certain expensive pup-set and they swap it out with generics, etc; rosewood is substituted by toilet pine, etc.

Every case will depend on its own merits and facts, but these are the basic legal issues. Odds usually in favour of seller, except if purchaser can prove that the variation / substitution is so serious and fundamental that it genuinely changes the nature of the contract to such an extent that you would not have contracted had you known this particular fact upfront [like, perhaps, this whole haddock deal - jeez ? ].

Hope it clarifies it somewhat...

Bob-Dubery

There is some room for confusion here. Epiphone list the guitar has having an "ebony" finish, though that's clearly a reference to the black paint job.

However both MF and Amazon list it as having an "a premium ebony fingerboard" (in fact they use the same copy). I don't think it's ruled out by the price, and I'm sure that it is some kind of ebony.

However I also tend to play games with advertising claims and ask what they're really saying. My wife will say "look, so-and-so is classically trained." I observe that that stipulation could be met by playing triangle in the school orchestra for a couple of months before they kicked you out because another triangle player who didn't suck quite as badly came along. Some words sound impressive but don't mean much.

It could also be that there is a Burmese hamlet named "Premium" (or with a name that translates into English as "Premium") where they grow a type of genetically modified balsa that they call "ebony".

I think that's pushing things a bit far in this case, but the word "premium" is another word that sounds impressive but doesn't mean much. What is "premium"?

deefstes

X-rated Bob wrote:It could also be that there is a Burmese hamlet named "Premium" (or with a name that translates into English as "Premium") where they grow a type of genetically modified balsa that they call "ebony".

lolz!

Malkav

X-rated Bob wrote: What is "premium"?

This: http://www.ibanez.co.jp/asia/news/f_products/2011/premium/index.html ? Lame I know, but I had to.

Riaan-Combrink

deefstes wrote:
X-rated Bob wrote:It could also be that there is a Burmese hamlet named "Premium" (or with a name that translates into English as "Premium") where they grow a type of genetically modified balsa that they call "ebony".
lolz!

Double LOL!! Vintage X-rated. 8)

singemonkey

As Alan says, there are a lot of wood species trading under various names, and it can take time for treaties to be made calling for common names to only refer to a few select species that are closely related. So I'm sure they're not making it up, but it might not be the same ebony you get on an LP Custom.

My Alhambra 2c - a student model classical - has an ebony board and (almost certainly) a solid cedar top. But it's 25+ years old so those things might have been more standard then.

Charlie4

Good to hear some different opinions, it seems advertising can sometimes be sneaky, legal of course, but still confusing/convincing the buyer into swiping his/her credit card.

singemonkey

Charlie4 wrote: Good to hear some different opinions, it seems advertising can sometimes be sneaky, legal of course, but still confusing/convincing the buyer into swiping his/her credit card.

I don't quite get the conclusion. Mine would be: "They use ebony, but find ways to reduce the costs probably, like using less prestigious species."

vic

singemonkey wrote:
Charlie4 wrote: Good to hear some different opinions, it seems advertising can sometimes be sneaky, legal of course, but still confusing/convincing the buyer into swiping his/her credit card.
I don't quite get the conclusion. Mine would be: "They use ebony, but find ways to reduce the costs probably, like using less prestigious species."

And DO NOT wander into the mahogany jungle !.....confusion... confusion...
I read somewhere (maybe on the my les paul forum ? ) that Honduran mahogany is now harvested somewhere in the East (on islands there ) from plantations which were planted by the Brits in the mid 1800's and by the US in the mid 40's....maybe Singe can shed more light on this.

Charlie4

singemonkey wrote:
Charlie4 wrote: Good to hear some different opinions, it seems advertising can sometimes be sneaky, legal of course, but still confusing/convincing the buyer into swiping his/her credit card.
I don't quite get the conclusion. Mine would be: "They use ebony, but find ways to reduce the costs probably, like using less prestigious species."

Well, I see it this way: If they use less prestigious species and make it sound like they use more prestigious species, your perception changes and you will spend more. That to me is still sneaky legal advertising.

singemonkey

Charlie4 wrote:
singemonkey wrote:
Charlie4 wrote: Good to hear some different opinions, it seems advertising can sometimes be sneaky, legal of course, but still confusing/convincing the buyer into swiping his/her credit card.
I don't quite get the conclusion. Mine would be: "They use ebony, but find ways to reduce the costs probably, like using less prestigious species."
Well, I see it this way: If they use less prestigious species and make it sound like they use more prestigious species, your perception changes and you will spend more. That to me is still sneaky legal advertising.

I just mean that it's not too bad. You get your ebony board. Words like "premium," and "exclusive" are advertising weasel-words that one should just mentally delete from any advert.