vic
Guys I wish to make it clear that I'm not wishing the traditional big stores away. These have their patrons and supporters and so be it. I use to be one until I discovered that there are alternatives and other options.
Nowadays I seldom if ever visit these shops. I simply do my "shopping" elsewhere, meaning I support the small entrepeneur from whom I can get most of my guitar and amp needs and repairs, or I buy used.
Maybe we are lucky to have the former option in my area because there are people here who have identified the need and have successfully seized the opportunity. I wish to think that this smaller "gear provider" initiative is gonna grow in years to come.....the transformation of the recording industry is perhaps another example.
MIKA-the-better-one
Give credit... Music connection, the guys there know some stuff......... but they could definatly do wit ha bit of a review up on the gear they have......... Really they point to a jag and say jazzmaster...... they point to a classic player series and say it is japanese, its not a simple mistake... they work there they should at least ... no their own stock semi well....... they dont have to quote me the complete specs on a guitar..... but they should know its model, and those important very simple things one should know........
Really though, the attitude I get from them, and it may be different as I may appear like a snot nosed 22 year old when i walk in...... is "we own all this gear, and it is a lucky for you to be looking at it" And I really cant stand it when someone tries to edeucate me on something and the info they are reciring is very wrong...
Lucky for me and many others we know what we are looking for, but in the case of say a 11 year old boy whose father takes him to the shop to buy his first guitar, they may not be so lucky. They can be told pretty much anything and believe it....... And I have seen some horrible things happen to people who did not know any better.
Pedal wise, I think its Music Connection they have a nano holy grail for R2400 !!!!!!!!!! Oh my goodness..... that is not right, and then they try tell me that EHX is not really worht that much, its a actually just a cheap brand, that no one in SA is intrested in :-\
It does however seem things are going toward online sales...... sadly I dont utilise this so much...... I salk gumtree and all of you for my gear ?
Keira-WitherKay
well . i used to live in midrand when i 1st moved to jhb about 3 yrs ago so i went to Marshall music woodmead and built up a relationship with them, and i have a "go to" guy there . actually he's a member of this forum stuart goodwin (he's also a top class pro guitarist )
stuart sources anything i want from smalls to major items ... everything or anything i want is ordered and is in the store normally within 48 hours.....AND HE CALLS ME BACK WITH QUOTES AND AVAILABILITY WITHIN 30 MIN OR LESS....... he offers me awesome unbeatable discounts too.. and the best is he offers this same service to all my students if they require anything ...... and he's honest too.... he calls a spade a spadse and does not whitewash any problems on any instruments .......... his advice i trust and when he does not know anything , he will actually say he doesn't but will find out for you ......
so NO i don't have bad experiences at music stores and if what you guys are saying about what goes on at other stores is true lets give stuart a "gold star" for service and discounts and calling one back within the hour or less....... and this is not idle praise.....
and no i don't work for or have shares in marshall music but i get awesome service and now i no longer live in the area , as i moved to Pretoria but i still travel the 50 km to Marshall music woodmead when i need to buy anything ...... so i prove my point that they worth the trip to get better service and bigger discounts.which more than covers any petrol expense and i still get it cheaper after i deduct my petrol expenses than i could from any other store.... and i test the discounts regularly i truly "shop around for the best price....and stuart always beats any price.....so far
afraid i tried a few pretoria stores and was shocked at what i experienced......... people telling ( not knowing i'm a classical /nylon fanatic) that they have some of the best classicals in stock and find them to be entry level takamines selling for R1600 and a saleman swearing blind that a curved capo will work on nylon string guitar ....and he's sold that same capo to all the top classical players in the area .... duh ???? classicals have dead flat fingerboards ....curved capo's just don't work fullstop ............. it frustrates me when they think we the buyer don't know our products..... and also what does that say about the "top classical players n that area " if they really buying those capos . yeah i really doubt that any classical payer will fall for that .......? but scary that he tried to blatantly lie to me to make a sale
so yeah i go to where i know i can get service and everything else even if it is a commute.....anyway i do most of the biz on the phone and jus travel thru to collect it .and when i'm there i check out all the new stock .....
Mr-M
guidothepimmp wrote
Are these sales people genuinly not knowledgable about the products they are selling or are some trying to bugger the instrument buying public that do not know any better?
My customers are music stores and thus I deal with the employees and owners of music stores daily. I also used to work in a music store, albeit 5 or 6 years ago. Thus I feel perhaps I am qualified to comment.
It's not possible to know everything (or often even enough to get by on) about each and every item for sale in their stores. This is why many stores have salesman dedicated to the different product groups (guitars/ drums/ PA/ studio etc.) who presumably have the knowledge to sell those products and offer some after sales support to the customer. Unfortunately this isn't the case at every store and often the salespeople are expected to be able to sell everything the store stocks which isn't entirely possible.
In stores that pay their staff on commission you might find the SM might try to sell you whatever items he can, regardless of his level of knowledge on the item. Is this because he's trying to bugger you? Or perhaps he's just trying to pay the bills at the end of the month any way he can even if it isn't the most honest thing to do? On the other hand, the theory with stores that don't pay their staff on commission is that as they have no incentive to sell you any old thing just to make commission, they should be more interested in giving you great service and good advice. Sadly, the other side of the coin is that these SM could possibly come across as bored and disinterested in helping you as they might feel little motivation to put significant effort into what they do. Then there's of course the many SM that act like they know it all when they really don't know any more than you do.
Is this a grand conspiracy on the part of the music stores to annoy their customers? Are they just trying to screw everyone over? Or is it perhaps a product of human nature - personal likes and dislikes, laziness, ignorance, complacency, having a bad day, a fear of looking bad in front of others, money, pride - that cause these SM to act the way they do? In any industry and in any retail environment you will find bad service and SM who don't know as much about their products as they should. It's a fact of life. It's the way people are and unless customers complain to stores in numbers it will never have a hope of changing and even then it's not guaranteed.
Of course there are SM who love what they do and are passionate about gear who will give you a great buying experience and are highly knowledgeable. Sadly these are not as common as they should be.
All that said and considered, I personally feel it is still inexcusable to not know as much has possible about the products you sell or to at least make an effort. It's a basic element of any sales job. Lucky for most of them then that I'm not their boss. >☹ :?
I do believe that with this essay I have earned the right to properly punctuate this post....Fools! ?
SM = Salesman/ Salesmen
Seventhson
I have to agree with you there. Not knowing a fair share of the products you are selling is no good. I am not saying you must no everything but atleast a few good many items.
AlanRatcliffe
I don't expect sales staff to know everything (that's unrealistic), but I do expect them to have a basic working knowledge of gear in general and fairly in depth detail on the stuff they carry. Or am I weird in that when I worked in stores I used to read manuals, catalogues and spec sheets and would actually try the new products? Seems like a basic requirement to do the job to me and I can have no confidence in someone who doesn't know their own products.
The example Keira gives of a SM selling curved capos for nylon guitars is inexcusable. Similarly my recent experience of a SM telling me that there was no difference between high and low impedance volume pedals. These people are steering people wrong and selling them the wrong things.
At the end of the day, I always vote with my feet. If I hear complete twaddle from a SM, I'll speak to someone else next time or go somewhere else.
[deleted]
Or perhaps he's just trying to pay the bills at the end of the month any way he can even if it isn't the most honest thing to do?
Or am I weird in that when I worked in stores I used to read manuals, catalogues and spec sheets and would actually try the new products? Seems like a basic requirement to do the job to me and I can have no confidence in someone who doesn't know their own products.
That would be the honest way of paying the bills at the end of the month.
guidothepimmp
yeh I can appreciate that some folk really struggle with money, and my ex guitarist worked in a well known music store mentioned above already and what he earned monthly was criminally low..
That said, i have a real problem hearing sales talk to novices convincing them to buy a bullet because its really a fender with a different name on it..
Ive had one or 2 instances where I have bought an instrument and NO ONE could setup the guit for me.. I had to go back until whoever was in for help. Not all bad of course, learnt how to setup my own guitars but this doesnt help the musos who want this service.
I also feel >☹ that after developing a "relationship" wth the guys in a music store that their service gradually got worse over time becase it was a given that I would return and buy from them..
I agree with Alan, any salesperson worth his salt should at least make an effort to know a bit about most of what he deals with.. I cant imagine they deal with clients all day everyday, so when you have 20 minutes read up on that tube amp sitting on the floor,
go put a curved capo and classical and see that it doesnt work..
I think in general we are a very tolerant bunch in RSA, but, thats no excuse for service delivery to be bad.. Even a change in attitude and just being geerally friendly is a start.. like a lot of users have said, I know what I am after when I go there, so more likely than not, I will not need technical info, just for you to collect said item and le metry it without any of the bollocks..
Reinhard
I have been so annoyed by sales people (either their lack of knowledge or creapiness (sp?) in one case) that I just never returned to the store.
Two things that really twist my nipples.
1. They speak to you like you are an idiot
2. They assume you can't afford something (your loss dude, I am sure you just lost out on some serious commission)
Ray
guidothepimmp wrote
I agree with Alan, any salesperson worth his salt should at least make an effort to know a bit about most of what he deals with.. I cant imagine they deal with clients all day everyday, so when you have 20 minutes read up on that tube amp sitting on the floor,
That's pretty much what I need to do (and I guess a lot of people around here) to stay employed at what I do. But anyway, I must also say that I dont really have a problem with a guy saying 'I dont know right now, can I run off and find out for you?' or 'I dont know but I can get someone who can give you all the info you need here'.
vic
Ray wrote
guidothepimmp wrote
I agree with Alan, any salesperson worth his salt should at least make an effort to know a bit about most of what he deals with.. I cant imagine they deal with clients all day everyday, so when you have 20 minutes read up on that tube amp sitting on the floor,
That's pretty much what I need to do (and I guess a lot of people around here) to stay employed at what I do. But anyway, I must also say that I dont really have a problem with a guy saying 'I dont know right now, can I run off and find out for you?' or 'I dont know but I can get someone who can give you all the info you need here'.
Just DON'T say.."I will call you back"... ?
ezietsman
I guess we've all had run-ins with sales staff. Its not only in music stores where you deal with guys who don't care/know/want to help. Try buying something computer related at one of the bigger retail stores and come and read this thread again.
My biggest peeve is when you ask the staff if they'll ever get <some product> in and they go "No, that stuff is crap, here try this <similar but more expensive item>".
Seventhson
ezietsman wrote
I guess we've all had run-ins with sales staff. Its not only in music stores where you deal with guys who don't care/know/want to help. Try buying something computer related at one of the bigger retail stores and come and read this thread again.
My biggest peeve is when you ask the staff if they'll ever get <some product> in and they go "No, that stuff is crap, here try this <similar but more expensive item>".
Dude I totally agree with you/ Alas I am going to have to work at a big pc store
/shudders.
Bob-Dubery
Ray wrote
guidothepimmp wrote
I agree with Alan, any salesperson worth his salt should at least make an effort to know a bit about most of what he deals with.. I cant imagine they deal with clients all day everyday, so when you have 20 minutes read up on that tube amp sitting on the floor,
That's pretty much what I need to do (and I guess a lot of people around here) to stay employed at what I do. But anyway, I must also say that I dont really have a problem with a guy saying 'I dont know right now, can I run off and find out for you?' or 'I dont know but I can get someone who can give you all the info you need here'.
Ja. I'd accept that, but I get narked when people suck stuff out of their thumbs instead of saying they need to RTFM.
I got fed up with the guys who did my solar water heating. I'd asked them about a specific feature which seemed sensible to me and would solve a problem we were having with the system. They insisted it was illegal. Eventually I called the guys who made the geyser (why did I have to do this?) and they said not only was it legal it was MANDATORY, oh and by the way from what you've told us it's that that's broken and that's why you don't get hot water on cloudy days.
So now the piece the sales guy says doesn't exist and may not exist is the problem. How's he going to now deal with the existence of this component so that the problem can be dealt with? He'd dug himself into a hole and he can't get out without egg on his face. Silly, he could have done what Ray says and I'd have thought he was great.
ezietsman
Seventhson wrote
ezietsman wrote
I guess we've all had run-ins with sales staff. Its not only in music stores where you deal with guys who don't care/know/want to help. Try buying something computer related at one of the bigger retail stores and come and read this thread again.
My biggest peeve is when you ask the staff if they'll ever get <some product> in and they go "No, that stuff is crap, here try this <similar but more expensive item>".
Dude I totally agree with you/ Alas I am going to have to work at a big pc store
/shudders.
I used to work for one of the big PC retailers (The biggest one, probably. You find them in malls all over). Just make sure you learn as much about the products as you can, learn about other products too, even other operating systems, people come asking whether this or that hardware will work in OSX or Linux and you should know. This way, you'll move up quickly ?
Sebastian
wow... some people have it out for salesmen huh?? ?
This all said, and everyone with their stories, there IS another side to these stories, like most anything.
I help out as a part-time salesman sometimes on weekends at my local music shop, except the regulatory part-time-help pay is next to nothing, and I'm a student who does it simply because I meet people for networking, learn ALOT about equipment and the different music scenes and actually just enjoy music shops! So with that said, the things I'll mention aren't said because I'm defending "my livelihood" or "my pride as a salesman" or"my colleagues", but just as stories of my experiences and observations as half customer/half employee.
Very often, people come in to music shops almost with what seems a critical frame of mind, and WANTING to find something wrong. At best, all you can do is NOT piss them off. If you do really well they might leave with some plectrums ?
Alot of people come into music shops as self-proclaimed "experts" and will equally tell employees a pile of trash about certain things, but the employees don't have the luxury of saying "you don't know what you're talking about, I'll go elsewhere for customers". These types of people can cause a guy working to have his day go the wrong way, and then have to help you later in the day in a stinking mood from earlier, and attempt NOT to throw his toys out the cot. And then he's subject to your scrutony where you can go complain about him on a forum.
People complain about the stock kept in music shops very often as if amazing stock is a prerequisite. Firstly, in a country like ours with a pitifully low number of music-playing people compared to other countries, keeping EVERYTHING or even what we consider the "cool" equipment is simply not worth it. Music shops sell MUCH more beginner guitars than they ever will of Gibsons, and so keeping walls full of the good stuff would actually just be stupid (the shop I help out at does have some candy, I'm not making excuses here!!!!). Secondly, guys wanting to spend fortunes on instruments WILL do their research and will know exactly what they want down to finish, construction material, series, range, tubes, speakers, pickups etc. so the chances of a shop keeping EXACTLY what they want are pretty much zero. Its actually a massive risk for SA shops to keep a good range!
Prices. People complain that equipment is too expensive and so end up not buying, or importing (which in some cases can actually work out more expensive and take longer, which is generally just blind for those individuals ? ) If people stopped NOT-SUPPORTING local shops and spent good quantities of cash at them, they could afford to be more competitive!!!! In fact, its seen as STUPID by alot of people to support a shop by spending alot of money there and not to import. If everyone started a healthy trend of supporting shops thoroughly, stock would be bought in bigger quantities and so shipping would be cheaper etc etc... That is pretty much my biggest point, I think, and it's not said from a biased point of view (it doesn't affect me in anyway other than it would for any other buyer. I don't get commission when I get asked to go in and help out...). Secondly, some people moaned about shops quoting list-pricings and then giving discounted prices afterwards as like an "added bonus" to try and win the sale. I'm not terribly clued up on this, but I think by law you have to let a customer know how much the recommended retail price is when giving the price you're prepared to sell for, which has to do with fair competition legislation, and applies to all products of any sort. (which is why newspapers and magazines have recommended retail prices on them in smallish print, yet they don't necessarily cost that in shops.) In fact, it seems like musical instruments might be some of the few items which usually cost LESS than recommended retail prices ? But don"t quote me on that...
Salesmen saying "they'll phone back on monday". I think as often as that happens, from my personal observations, a customer will equally request we order certain (usually expensive) stock, promise to come back on wednesday to pay and collect, and then they never pitch and so we're stuck with expensive, unbought equipment. What is a music shop supposed to do??? Along similar lines, some people come in swearing the shops put up like 200% markup on products and that they're just trying to rip people off. In some cases I've seen, some people SWEAR they can get certain products from other shops for around 35% less, and after research to try find out how these shops are managing to sell products for such illegally low prices, it turns out these customers have been to them as well and told the exact same story there!
Salesmen not knowing basic knowledge of products, and telling stories out of money-want or foolishness. INEXCUSABLE. Its their job. If I don't know anything about a product (usually drums hahaha ? !!!!) the computer is right there, with manufacturers websites readily available...
I think that people judging "salesmen" is actually just silly, as customers are equally as judgeable in some circumstances except with the power to complain. If you feel you should be judging and that it'll make you feel better to do so, just judge "people" rather. Every industry has its crooks and bad guys, but the good guys are what make it all worth it. To focus on the bad guys is just detrimental to your own health... Those guys aren't going anywhere regardless of all the moaning, so its better to learn to accept that fact. In fact, music shops tend to be wonderful environments which attract REALLY NICE guys and girls who all share the biggest possible passion a person can have. THAT feeling music gives you.
Be good customers, salesmen be good salesmen, and we'll all ignore the @#*$&!( and accept them as par for the course ?
MoJo-JoJoe
Great post, Sebastian! I have been mistaken for working for music stores because I hold many of the same sentiments as you do. I do not work for any music stores, but I do see their point as well. I thoroughly enjoy visiting most of the music stores in my part of SA and feel my life would be poorer without them there. Like Keira, I've forged some good relationships with sales people over the years and tend to support them even if they move to another store or company. The "monkeys" (and they ARE there) get the greeting and never see my business. I usually call ahead and make sure the person I want to talk to is in on that day, and if not I change my plans to fit.
IceCreamMan
Great post Sebastian...
Salesppl are a certain breed, they would sell their mother for gain. Takes a certain personality to be a succesful sales person.... at the end of the day do your research properly and ask leading questions .... to expect musical instrument salesppl to be paragons of virtue is naive
IceCreamMan
MIKA the better one wrote
Give credit... Music connection, the guys there know some stuff......... but they could definatly do wit ha bit of a review up on the gear they have......... Really they point to a jag and say jazzmaster...... they point to a classic player series and say it is japanese, its not a simple mistake... they work there they should at least ... no their own stock semi well....... they dont have to quote me the complete specs on a guitar..... but they should know its model, and those important very simple things one should know........
Really though, the attitude I get from them, and it may be different as I may appear like a snot nosed 22 year old when i walk in...... is "we own all this gear, and it is a lucky for you to be looking at it" And I really cant stand it when someone tries to edeucate me on something and the info they are reciring is very wrong...
Lucky for me and many others we know what we are looking for, but in the case of say a 11 year old boy whose father takes him to the shop to buy his first guitar, they may not be so lucky. They can be told pretty much anything and believe it....... And I have seen some horrible things happen to people who did not know any better.
Pedal wise, I think its Music Connection they have a nano holy grail for R2400 !!!!!!!!!! Oh my goodness..... that is not right, and then they try tell me that EHX is not really worht that much, its a actually just a cheap brand, that no one in SA is intrested in :-\
It does however seem things are going toward online sales...... sadly I dont utilise this so much...... I salk gumtree and all of you for my gear ?
Why not take it up with them,2 posts trashing MC ..lots of pent up emotion there ...go talk to em man...i reckon they would love to hear yr feedback,seriously.
i been to MC a number of times , nothing but great service with em an loads of patience when i dither ..... always accomodating and pleasant to deal with BUT always push on price ....
BMU
Good post Sebastian. Very good to read the viewpoint from the other side.
I haven't really had bad experiences with SA music shops. And I'll say that overseas shops are pretty similar, for instance I actually found it worse in Singapore. (Which is supposedly such a 1st world, consumer friendly economy.) And go read some of the b*tching about the big US chains on forums sometime.
My one pet peeve is bad setups on good instruments, making them unplayable and negating the 'try before you buy' advantage that a local shop supposedly provides. But I've vented about that before.
